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      01-17-2013, 08:52 AM   #1
baege
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Is Reliability a Consideration for others?

Wondering if the reliability of our cars is ever a factor for others in motivating them to make a move to a newer vehicle. My vehicle is a 2007, with 55,000 km (35000 miles), currently under CPO until May of this year.

Its been good so far, the only item done under warranty were the xenons. I also replaced the battery.

I still love the car. But the spectre of costly repairs and the inconvenience of mechanical issues and possibly being left stranded, often causes me to desire to get something newer. And yet there is nothing relatively new on the market that really gets my crank going like my coupe. I like the E89, but aesthetically, I donít like it quite as much as my coupe and its heavier, less connected nature doesnít attract me.

So I find myself in a bit of a bind. I am happy with the car and if it had warranty for another 3 years would gladly keep it. But that isnít the case. And yet when I look around I canít find a suitable replacement. The 2014 cayman is probably the closest thing out there right now that stirs me, but it doesnít have the cult like pull that the Z4C has for me.

Wondering if others face this same issue? Is reliability of our cars something that you worry about and makes you consider replacing your Z?
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      01-17-2013, 09:02 AM   #2
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BMW ranks poor in reliabilty ratings. You have to dump them sooner than other brands because of the high cost/frequency of repairs and that repairs.
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      01-17-2013, 09:04 AM   #3
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I have an '03 with 50,000+ miles on it and have had no issues other than routine maintenance: oil/filter annually, brake fluid every two years, coolant replacement at 5 years, tires as needed and a battery replacement after 7 years. I don't drive the Z alot but when I do I drive moderatly aggressive (wife hates it when I carve the mountain curves).

Pretty reliable car.
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      01-17-2013, 09:07 AM   #4
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One thing that's always kept me hanging onto my cars is when you consider the cost of repairs versus what you'd pay for a newer car.

Example- My parents bought a Buick Lacrosse in 2010 (but 2011 MY), put probably about 35k on it in a almost 2 years.. They then bought a 2012 model of the exact same car, except it was a different color and a brand new vehicle. Effectively, my parents paid probably 10k for the exact same car, and really all they gained was a warranty. I thought this was stupid, but hey it's not my money.. In their case, the chances of them having any major repairs before 60-100k (like a transmission) is pretty unlikely.. Maybe tires and brakes somewhere between 35k and 60k.

Lets say you get 30k USD for your Z4 (probably high, but humor me)... You're going to pay at least 64k for a Cayman S (why bother with the base model), so thats a difference of 34k. For $34,000, you could EASILY replace your entire drivetrain with brand new..

My point is, it's almost always cheaper to keep a good running vehicle than to buy a new one purely from the standpoint of worrying about repairs. It's pretty unlikely you'll have any major meltdowns at 35k.. If your car is the manual transmission, you probably have until 100k miles until you're thinking about clutch. Outside of that, it's just normal maintenance or the oddball problem that comes up. These cars don't have a lot of major mechanical issues, so I wouldn't worry about it.

I know sometimes a $1000 repair bill can hurt, but would you rather have one of those once a year (worst case scenario) or a be paying nearly that per month in a payment?

BTW, if you're going to Porsche and expecting better reliability that's definitely amusing. Not saying they're bad cars, but I'd trust a BMW to stay out of the shop more than a porsche, and also to be CONSIDERABLY cheaper to maintain.
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      01-17-2013, 09:09 AM   #5
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The cars require more care/periodic maintenance which the average owner does not do. That does not help the reliability factor. General repairs can tend to cost more than domestic and JDM brands, but that is also where there is a pretty good pool of DIY information for the shade tree mechanics out there. I knew someone who had over 400kmi on their original BMW engine w/o need of any major repair to it as well as others near or over 100k. Conversely, I've known some Jeep owners that had their engines throw rods or their transmissions detonate << 30kmi (42RE trans was crap).

With European cars, you trade ownership and reliability for more frequent maintenance (most of which the casual owner can do themselves) but I do not consider them to be all that much more unreliable than other makes. That said, I still won't buy a first gen engine/chassis/etc but that logic applies to a lot of purchases for obvious reasons.
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      01-17-2013, 09:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeT View Post
I have an '03 with 50,000+ miles on it and have had no issues other than routine maintenance: oil/filter annually, brake fluid every two years, coolant replacement at 5 years, tires as needed and a battery replacement after 7 years. I don't drive the Z alot but when I do I drive moderatly aggressive (wife hates it when I carve the mountain curves).

Pretty reliable car.
Thanks for the information, very comforting.
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      01-17-2013, 09:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by elwesso View Post
One thing that's always kept me hanging onto my cars is when you consider the cost of repairs versus what you'd pay for a newer car.

Example- My parents bought a Buick Lacrosse in 2010 (but 2011 MY), put probably about 35k on it in a almost 2 years.. They then bought a 2012 model of the exact same car, except it was a different color and a brand new vehicle. Effectively, my parents paid probably 10k for the exact same car, and really all they gained was a warranty. I thought this was stupid, but hey it's not my money.. In their case, the chances of them having any major repairs before 60-100k (like a transmission) is pretty unlikely.. Maybe tires and brakes somewhere between 35k and 60k.

Lets say you get 30k USD for your Z4 (probably high, but humor me)... You're going to pay at least 64k for a Cayman S (why bother with the base model), so thats a difference of 34k. For $34,000, you could EASILY replace your entire drivetrain with brand new..

My point is, it's almost always cheaper to keep a good running vehicle than to buy a new one purely from the standpoint of worrying about repairs. It's pretty unlikely you'll have any major meltdowns at 35k.. If your car is the manual transmission, you probably have until 100k miles until you're thinking about clutch. Outside of that, it's just normal maintenance or the oddball problem that comes up. These cars don't have a lot of major mechanical issues, so I wouldn't worry about it.

I know sometimes a $1000 repair bill can hurt, but would you rather have one of those once a year (worst case scenario) or a be paying nearly that per month in a payment?

BTW, if you're going to Porsche and expecting better reliability that's definitely amusing. Not saying they're bad cars, but I'd trust a BMW to stay out of the shop more than a porsche, and also to be CONSIDERABLY cheaper to maintain.

Thanks for the post. I've had similar thoughts. I buy my cars outright so payments aren't a consideration. But obviously a newer car depreciates at a much higher rate. My Z will likely only lose maybe 8-10K of its value in the next 3 years. A 2014 cayman is going to depreciate about 25-30K in the same time frame (if you factor in what it costs you to get it on the road including taxes). So the difference is 17 to 20K. It would take a lot of repairs to make up that difference.

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      01-17-2013, 10:20 AM   #8
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Your 2007 with 35k is hardly old. It's barely broken in. As a friend told me when I bought mine, take good care of it and it will take good care of you. There are quite a few 100k+ Z4s on here and I'm sure they will chime in soon.

I think elwesso nailed it though. If you've found a car that stirs you, why give it up out of fear or concern over what may or may not happen. Maintenance and a repair here and there are way less than a payment. If you're really worried, get a AAA membership that will keep you out of the weeds in the unlikely event something happens.
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      01-17-2013, 10:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwesso View Post
One thing that's always kept me hanging onto my cars is when you consider the cost of repairs versus what you'd pay for a newer car.

Example- My parents bought a Buick Lacrosse in 2010 (but 2011 MY), put probably about 35k on it in a almost 2 years.. They then bought a 2012 model of the exact same car, except it was a different color and a brand new vehicle. Effectively, my parents paid probably 10k for the exact same car, and really all they gained was a warranty. I thought this was stupid, but hey it's not my money.. In their case, the chances of them having any major repairs before 60-100k (like a transmission) is pretty unlikely.. Maybe tires and brakes somewhere between 35k and 60k.

Lets say you get 30k USD for your Z4 (probably high, but humor me)... You're going to pay at least 64k for a Cayman S (why bother with the base model), so thats a difference of 34k. For $34,000, you could EASILY replace your entire drivetrain with brand new..

My point is, it's almost always cheaper to keep a good running vehicle than to buy a new one purely from the standpoint of worrying about repairs. It's pretty unlikely you'll have any major meltdowns at 35k.. If your car is the manual transmission, you probably have until 100k miles until you're thinking about clutch. Outside of that, it's just normal maintenance or the oddball problem that comes up. These cars don't have a lot of major mechanical issues, so I wouldn't worry about it.

I know sometimes a $1000 repair bill can hurt, but would you rather have one of those once a year (worst case scenario) or a be paying nearly that per month in a payment?

BTW, if you're going to Porsche and expecting better reliability that's definitely amusing. Not saying they're bad cars, but I'd trust a BMW to stay out of the shop more than a porsche, and also to be CONSIDERABLY cheaper to maintain.
X2. Keep the used car if cost is the main consideration. The newer car will probably be more reliable because it is 6 years newer and has fewer miles on it. The money saved by not buying a new one will pay for everything that could go wrong.
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      01-17-2013, 10:50 AM   #10
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I also have a 2003 that I've owned since new and have just done regular maintenance. No problems so far, in fact I'll be replacing the battery for the first time in a few days.

Find a good local independent shop if you don't work on it yourself. The BMW straight six is one of the best engines out there and has been around for years.
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      01-17-2013, 10:52 AM   #11
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BMW ranks poor in reliabilty ratings. You have to dump them sooner than other brands because of the high cost/frequency of repairs and that repairs.
LOL Didn't you just buy a Vette?

A properly maintained Z4M will be just fine. Paranoia pandering doesn't hold water with these cars. Take care of them, and their craft will reward you.
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      01-17-2013, 11:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAL2GK View Post
I also have a 2003 that I've owned since new and have just done regular maintenance. No problems so far, in fact I'll be replacing the battery for the first time in a few days.

Find a good local independent shop if you don't work on it yourself. The BMW straight six is one of the best engines out there and has been around for years.
cheers also comforting to hear
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      01-17-2013, 12:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAL2GK View Post
I also have a 2003 that I've owned since new and have just done regular maintenance. No problems so far, in fact I'll be replacing the battery for the first time in a few days.

Find a good local independent shop if you don't work on it yourself. The BMW straight six is one of the best engines out there and has been around for years.
Agreed! I had an '84 533i, which also was a 3.2L I6 (although only made 180 HP vs the M's 330). That car had 185k on it and still ran good, I have no doubt in my mind that car would have made it to 250k.

Another thing to consider if you're gonna get a Cayman... An LSD is not standard on the Cayman (wasn't even available on earlier ones).. You'll definitely want that. I don't understand how people can sell "sports cars" without LSD's, but I guess they do. Although I suppose the 3.0si didn't get an LSD either...
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      01-17-2013, 12:49 PM   #14
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BMW ranks poor in reliabilty ratings. You have to dump them sooner than other brands because of the high cost/frequency of repairs and that repairs.
"BMW" may rank poor in reliability ratings, but which years are we talking about and which models? Saying "BMW" ranks poor is painting with mile wide brush and very thick paint. It doesn't address Baege's question, which is specific to a MY and model.

Here are some examples...
  • The E9x M3 has great reliability ratings.
  • The E9x 335 has terrible reliability ratings. (The notorious wastegate, turbo, and especially high pressure fuel pump failures).
  • Both are from the same MY periods. Both are essentially 3 series cars, but with a different suspension, drivetrain, and engine.
  • The crappy 135, 335, and 535 rankings were a huge drag on the brand for the years with the N54 engine. I'd also add that these issues were eventually fixed, covered with a BMW provided extended warranty, etc. Was a PITA if you owned one out of the box, but for someone looking for a 50K 335, the rankings may not tell a the whole story.

The E85/E86 has very good to good reliability ratings. Actually better than competing brands. But it depends on the MY, and the drivetrain. And even for the "good" (not great) 2006 year, a quick look at the type of repairs, shows things like cupholders, firewall strut bar, rear suspension loosening. Very few large ticket items, and most have an easy DIY fix, or are well known as "maintenance" (firewall struts, etc.) items for those on this forum. Very few folks here are going to take the car in for a loose firewall brace.

Bottom line, reliability is a lot more complex than a broad brush statement can convey.

Actual data can be found here. It's not a bad idea to join (which I did long ago) as it's a 1 min set of questions every 6 months that helps increase the number of data points. Plus you get to search a larger set of data. There are also comparisons to similar car in class. Good stuff, no matter which car you own or which you might consider owning.

As for repairs, elwesso nailed it. While Baege wouldn't be making monthly payments, he would be "paying" in terms of depreciation. Either way, putting 400-500 month (or even a bit less) into your his own "warranty fund" would be better way to plan for the future IMO. That way he would get interest, and if the repair never comes, he'd have a nice chunk of change that he could use the next time around to pass on the extended warranty and etc. Money in one's pocket and not some insurance company's pocket (that's all a warranty is, an insurance policy) is always a good deal.

Last edited by Finnegan; 01-17-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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      01-17-2013, 12:52 PM   #15
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2007 coupe here with 67k miles. Outside of consumables (tires, brakes) and adhering to to the preventative maintenance schedule, I haven't touched it. I drive 80 miles a day to work (no snow) and autocross it in summer months.

Same story with the e46 I had before this one. Outside of a camshaft position sensor ($95 online) and a leaking valve cover gasket ($70) it was problem free. I considered both of those issues acceptable and by fixing them myself I saved several hundred dollars. The internet is a wonderful resource of DIY's from folks who have been down the path before for just about any repair you can think of.
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      01-17-2013, 12:58 PM   #16
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I have 89,000 miles on my '01 Dinan Z3. Replaced the water pump, battery, and both cam position sensors. Other than that brakes, oil, wiper blades etc. It is as reliable as anything out there. I think the trick is to get a car that is not loaded with computers, software, video screens and needless electronic voodoo. I also have a 07 Z4MC with 27,000 miles on it and no nav system. I have no fears, that if not abused, it will be just fine for 100,000 miles.

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      01-17-2013, 01:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
"BMW" may rank poor in reliability ratings, but which years are we talking about and which models? Saying "BMW" ranks poor is painting with mile wide brush and very thick paint. It doesn't address Baege's question, which is specific to a MY and model.

Here are some examples...
  • The E9x M3 has great reliability ratings.
  • The E9x 335 has terrible reliability ratings. (The notorious wastegate, turbo, and especially high pressure fuel pump failures).
  • Both are from the same MY periods. Both are essentially 3 series cars, but with a different suspension, drivetrain, and engine.
  • The crappy 135, 335, and 535 rankings were a huge drag on the brand for the years with the N54 engine. I'd also add that these issues were eventually fixed, covered with a BMW provided extended warranty, etc. Was a PITA if you owned one out of the box, but for someone looking for a 50K 335, the rankings may not tell a the whole story.

The E85/E86 has very good to good reliability ratings. Actually better than competing brands. But it depends on the MY, and the drivetrain. And even for the "good" (not great) 2006 year, a quick look at the type of repairs, shows things like cupholders, firewall strut bar, rear suspension loosening. Very few large ticket items, and most have an easy DIY fix, or are well known as "maintenance" (firewall struts, etc.) items for those on this forum. Very few folks here are going to take the car in for a loose firewall brace.

Bottom line, reliability is a lot more complex than a broad brush statement can convey.

Actual data can be found here. It's not a bad idea to join (which I did long ago) as it's a 1 min set of questions every 6 months that helps increase the number of data points. Plus you get to search a larger set of data. There are also comparisons to similar car in class. Good stuff, no matter which car you own or which you might consider owning.

As for repairs, elwesso nailed it. While Baege wouldn't be making monthly payments, he would be "paying" in terms of depreciation. Either way, putting 400-500 month (or even a bit less) into your his own "warranty fund" would be better way to plan for the future IMO. That way he would get interest, and if the repair never comes, he'd have a nice chunk of change that he could use the next time around to pass on the extended warranty and etc. Money in one's pocket and not some insurance company's pocket (that's all a warranty is, an insurance policy) is always a good deal.
cheers on all the useful info. I've signed up for the reliability survey site.
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      01-17-2013, 01:59 PM   #18
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Either way, putting 400-500 month (or even a bit less) into your his own "warranty fund" would be better way to plan for the future IMO.
This. If you don't have any major repairs you'd be sitting on about 30 grand after 5 years. Let that sink in.

The Z4s in general have been very reliable. For my it's my daily driver, so it was a huge concern when buying this car. So far it's been great and issues have been absolutely minor. Searching this forum has always found me a simple/cheap/DIY solution. So far I've had to tighten firewall braces, replace a battery, and replace a throttle position sensor: total cost less than $300. All of it doable by a novice.

The number of major failures on here are pretty minimal. Considering a person is 10 times more likely to post about a bad experience over a good one, I think that's a pretty good indicator.
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      01-17-2013, 07:18 PM   #19
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I second the reliablity of our cars. I drive my coupe every day to the office and have yet to have a breakdown or anything major fail. I do believe in regular exercise.

These are great machines and should not be grouped into the more problematic series.

Maybe due to less voodoo..... hahahahah love it. And yes the day my navi fails to lift up is the day I no longer have navi. jk jk
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      01-17-2013, 07:33 PM   #20
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As for reliability, I think that we could create a list of known to fail items that are not part of standard maintenance. These could be replaced proactively at an advised mileage-to-failure point to save money, prevent the headache of being stranded, cause an extra mechanic visit rather than DIY, or ruin a weekend or a great driving day:

Coil on Plugs: $180, replace at 35,000 miles, DIY time: 1 hour
Cam position sensor: ??, replace at ?? miles
Battery: $150, replace at 4 years

Does anyone else think it's a good idea to put together a list of the parts that typically fail with the cost and other related items? List them out and I'll collate the info into a spreadsheet and then re-post for a sticky.
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      01-17-2013, 07:49 PM   #21
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Probably better to add it to the FAQ sticky.
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      01-17-2013, 08:31 PM   #22
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Good idea.

Firewall strut bar (older version only), check tightness every 10K miles.
Rear ARB, check tightness every 10k miles.
Motor mount bolts (not really interval based)
Power steering lines, check every 5K for weeping/seepage or annually.
VANOS bolts, check cams for looseness when doing valves.
Possibly oil pan bolts (recent thread on that).

First three aren't going to leave you stranded, but are "failure points".

The last three could be bad news.
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