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      05-01-2011, 05:05 PM   #1
Finnegan
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Transmission and Engine Mount Comparison (Master List)

Notice: The location of the A/C drain, and water outflow, seem to have a pronounced negative effect on poly mounts. Jury is out on effect on neoprene. Recommendation is to check the mounts every 6-12 months for wear/degradation.


Purpose: The purpose of this thread is to keep a master list of all transmission mount options and a description of the effect of the change and the target application (track, street, etc.) as well as some general information about the subject in one easy-to-find place.

Issues: Primarily denial of 2nd gear from higher gears (car will not go into gear 2nd gate is "blocked"). This issue typically arises during hard braking and/or hard turns, especially such that would be found in autoX or the track. Also, drive line flex can mean a less than smooth shifting experience--some report a smoother shifting experience between 1st and 2nd and overall with mounts.

Goal: Reduce the frequency of this issue without making the car intolerable to drive ("intolerable" will be subjective and will be directly related to intended use: street/track).

Scope: This covers the denial of 2nd only and does not address the "1st to 2nd" grinding issue. (That is best addressed through shifting style--slight pause, pull down and to the left; and potentially a change of fluids. Search for more on this if you have this issue). New information-December 2012. It may be that engine mounts and engine movement are the primary cause of issues, and that transmission mounts are a secondary (and only partial) cure. They do reduce issues, but do not eliminate them. Please see this thread on Engine Mounts for more information.

Updates:
I'll try to keep this thread updated as data comes in. ( Also, many thanks to those who have posted on this before, done DIYs, or answered my PMs on this topic! ) If there's a resource or thread I should add please PM me and I'll add it (don't expect me to read every post that may end up in this thread--assume I'm lazy ).

Recommendations: These are based on my research, info submitted by forum members, and personal experience (Rogue neoprene and UUC Red Poly). Please note that YMMD. If you strongly disagree with a recommendation, please PM me some data and your experience so that can be considered for updates to this thread.

Terms: NVH = Noise Vibration Harshness. Poly = Polyurethane. Neoprene = Rubber

Quick Recommendations:
Street only: Rogue neoprene transmission mounts, if a little more rawness and mild/mild-moderate NVH is desired, UUC black poly.

Mixed track/autoX + street: UUC poly, or Rogue neoprene transmission mounts, possibly enforcer cups, and possibly Rogue neoprene motor mounts. (Lower NVH w/neoprene.)

Track only: red poly, and probably upgraded motor mounts as well (Rogue neoprene or poly).

Please see details below!!!

Installation:
Installing these little babies is a major PITA w/o a lift and not even that much fun with one due to location and limited space. Blind32 has a great DIY as does Billswebspace. An indie shop should be able to install these with about an hour's labor and if you have access to such a shop it's a pretty good option. Over torqueing the nuts (19 nm torque, which is very little) will result is a lot of noise no matter which option is chosen.

The Complications of "Black" and "Red": In various posts and threads mounts are often simply referred to by color. However, the color is not as important as the actual material. Poly will be louder than neoprene, and it's not possible to equate the results of red neoprene to red poly. To further complicate matters, UUC used to make red and black neoprene mounts. They have recently changed their production to be red and black poly. So it is important to keep that in mind when looking at threads/posts where folks have noted their impressions of NVH. Red and black neoprene will not yield the same results as poly!

Transmission Mount Options
Rogue Engineering Neoprene: Improved feel, slightly more notchiness, greater precision. Very slight increase in NVH, most noticeable in reverse or with 1st gear engagement. Seems to cure the 3rd to 2nd gear denial issue for most except in the most demanding situations (where engine movement may also become a factor). Recommended solution for most common applications due to the limited NVH and improved feel.

UUC Black Poly: More NVH due to the use of poly. May hold up better in hotter and more intense applications (track in particular) due to the nature of poly vs. neoprene. Comes with or without enforcer cups. The cups add a bit more NVH (several folks report no increase) but are supposed to decrease transmission wobble even more. When researching here on the forum, please note that while various threads/posts may be useful most of these folks commenting on the UUC black mounts had the earlier rubber version, not poly. Mfanatic has these, which he's installed and uninstalled several times with the end result being they're rather noisy. Recommended for track or heavy autocross use only where the car has fairly limited street use.

UUC Red Poly: Significant increase in NVH. Noted improvements in feel, precision, and a bit more notchiness compared to the Rogue. The NVH drowns out the sound of the S54 and there's a “airplane like sound quality” to the drivetrain. (Skelekitty says it sounds like farmer Ted's tractor.) This is more pronounced under heavy throttle and/or above 3,500 RPM and the NVH increase in relation to increase throttle and RPMs. NVH going into reverse and first can be a bit disconcerting. UUC says "...initial user reports say that it is minimal and certainly acceptable." Depends on who is doing the listening I think. Link Recommended for track or heavy autoX use only where the car has very limited street use.

UUC Red Poly Bolt Through: Not recommended for anything but a dedicated track car.(probably similar to the Vorshlag). I don't know anyone with these, but given how the regular red poly are, they have to expose the occupants to a lot of NVH. Recommended for dedicated track and race cars only.

UUC "Enforcer Cups": These are an optional addition from UUC that are supposed to offer more control. Reports vary. Those using these in conjunction with Rogue neoprene report more control and a small increase in NVH. Some using them with poly report excessive NVH.

Voschlag (Orange or Red): Massive NVH (Z4mnyc has these plus engine mounts and says “the radio is almost pointless”). Recommended for dedicated track or race cars only!
Additional Options and Notes
Engine Mounts: Engine mounts (Vibra Technics, UUC, Vorshlag, or Rogue) can be added to further reduce driveline movement. Adding these and the transmission mounts will practically eliminate any drivetrain slop--this the only way to fully eliminate the denial of 2nd issue. Those who have done this report a full fix under all conditions. Vibra Technics appears to have a solution that does not appreciably increase NVH but does reduce motion while retaining good isolation properties. E46 M3 owners report good results. Please see this thread.

UUC and Vorshlag are both Poly this will may be at the expense of your sanity in anything but a fully prepped and dedicated full-time track (or preferably race) car due to NVH. Rogue has a neoprene version out that they claim only increases NVH by ~30%, and is cheaper than the BMW Motorsport version (380 vs. 800+). (BMW Motorsport mounts are just a harder rubber version of stock like the Rogue.) No real data from forum members on the Rogue get, but based on the experience of the neoprene vs. poly mounts it's fair to assume these would have considerably less NVH than poly. (If anyone gets the rubber, please PM me your experience.) Poly are recommended for race prepped cars only; Neoprene for those who want more control over the drivetrain and a smaller increase in NVH.

General Application Notes: In terms of NVH from least to most: Stock -> Vibra Technics -> Rogue -> UUC Black -> UUC Red -> Vorschlag. As someone noted the other day on the forum engineering/design is always about compromise.

Last edited by Finnegan; 09-07-2013 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Updated 09/7/13 to reflect issues with poly mounts
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      05-01-2011, 05:14 PM   #2
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Nice work on pulling this data together.
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      05-01-2011, 05:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Nice work on pulling this data together.
Thanks! It's the least I can do given the amount of help I receive on a daily basis on this forum my friend!
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      05-01-2011, 09:05 PM   #4
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Great Write Up!!!!!
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      05-01-2011, 11:14 PM   #5
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I went with AKG Motorsports's offering. I liked how you could select which durometer you wanted and went with the 80A variety as the car is still street driven. I got both engine mounts and transmission mounts installed at the same time so I cannot comment on them individually.

That said, my NVH experience is as follows. The mounts will increase the chance that OTHER objects in and around the cabin will exhibit NVH. In other words, the effect of the mounts themselves is simply that the car feels more raw. Engine idling is more pronounced and the transmission feels more mechanical in its operation. After tracking down some rouge plastic plugs and clips throughout the cabin, NVH is minimal and not something I notice anymore.
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      05-02-2011, 12:14 AM   #6
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Nice writeup!
+1 for solving "Denial of 2nd gear from higher gears" I can now reliably shift from 3rd to 2nd at a section of the track where this was usually impossible. Funny thing is now that this is working I have learnt to stay in 3rd gear through that section... lol
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      05-02-2011, 01:32 AM   #7
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Nice write up and great addition to the forum!

This should be considered for a sticky.
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      05-02-2011, 01:53 AM   #8
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I'm super happy w/my UUC blacks. They have a bit more NVH than stock, but nothing off-putting. Between my Zeck CDV, the mounts, and my clutch-stop... my shifting is near flawless. But I don't think I had as much of an issue to begin with as I've read some people have here. 2nd is always there, and I shift QUICK. On sunny days, traction control goes off, sport mode goes on, and the car is mine. That's the routine, with no grinds
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      05-02-2011, 08:56 AM   #9
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Great write-up!
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      05-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #10
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Nice Write-up!

I have the UUC Red Poly and I agree with your NVH findings. It is a noticeable change in cabin noise level. Since my car is not a daily driver and is used for autoX and "spirited weekend driving", I find the noise tolerable. The noise kicks in around ~3k RPMs and then the AFE intake chimes in around ~5k. Together its quite the orchestra, next is the exhaust...

Wait, what? The car has a radio? Who knew....
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      05-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #11
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Thanks for the compilation of data ..... This makes my decision much easier
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      05-02-2011, 10:29 AM   #12
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Thanks for the work. This should be a sticky.
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      05-02-2011, 02:29 PM   #13
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Thanks everyone. If a few more concur, we'll see about making this a sticky. A few more thoughts...

It may be that the only way to eliminate this issue fully is with both improved transmission mounts and improved engine mounts. Transmission mounts can improve feel and precision and do offer improvement in the denial of 2nd issue, but they're not a total fix.If you don't heavily track your car or really push it in autoX this doesn't apply to you. For most, a simple upgrade of the mounts to neoprene provides good bang for the buck and will address most cases of denial of 2nd in normal driving and improve shifter feel/precision.

Rogue Engineering's website says "To eliminate even MORE movement from the transmission, you must go to the root of the issue, the factory motor mounts." Vorshlag says the same thing: the transmission is only part of the problem. This makes sense when you think about it—the engine itself has a large amount of mass and is pretty tall, and in high-G situations it makes sense it would move as well.

There is evidence to suggest that these vendors may have a valid assertion. First, z4mnyc has succeeded in eliminating the issue but only with both engine and transmission mounts (see post). Second, I can point to the experience with my car and Skelekitty's car. The UUC Reds allow me to get into 2nd on an off-camber turn close to home where I pretty routinely cannot get into 2nd in Skelekitty’s Rogue equipped car. However, there is one section of track where for me 2nd is still an issue. So the UUC Reds offer a bit more than the neoprene, and both are better than stock, but neither is a complete solution.

Rogue offers a set of fully isolated hard rubber engine mounts for 380 dollars. (These are similar to the hard rubber BMW Motorsport mounts which cost 800). Rogue notes that there will be some increase in NVH over stock; however, I would imagine they’re much quieter than alternate offerings from Vorshlag and UUC who only offer Red Poly and Nylon.

I'm going to replace the UUC Red Poly with Rogue Engineering neoprene as the NVH decreases my enjoyment of the car. I may move to the Rogue motor mounts at some point as well.

I’d also like to collect more data on the motor mount part of this solution before I update the OP regarding that part of the puzzle. Anyone else have both motor and transmission mounts? If so, experience/impact?
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      05-04-2011, 01:45 PM   #14
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Finn...I purchased the black mounts from UUC 3 months ago. What is the best way to determine if it is rubber or poly? Since I have them in hand, but not installed, and if I do have poly, is the difference great enough to dump them and buy from Rogue for track/street applications? Thanks...
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      05-04-2011, 02:05 PM   #15
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^UUC are all poly, red are stiffer than black
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      05-04-2011, 02:10 PM   #16
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sticky! thanks for the write up
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      05-04-2011, 02:16 PM   #17
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InTgr8 has the "are they poly" covered. Cool.

If your application is track/street, the poly do have some level of advantage over rubber. Poly isn't as affected by heat for one. There is a difference between Red Poly vs. Neoprene Rubber and I've been able to test and prove that with 'Kitty's car and my car. Whether is as pronounced Black Poly vs. Neoprene Rubber is hard to say (no data). From the reports I've read or received, the black Poly do have more NVH than Rogue, but it's not as pronounced as the Reds.

Like I said in my second post in this thread, I think the ultimate answer to solving this isn't to go hard as hell on the transmission part but to address both ends of the issue at the engine and at the transmission.

Like anything with cars there's always some kind of trade off!

Whatever you do, please post your results!
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      05-04-2011, 03:06 PM   #18
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Thanks for everyones reply! I will throw them on and give them a good workover at the track next weekend.
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      05-04-2011, 03:22 PM   #19
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STICKY!!!

I just bought the RE tranny mounts for the feel without added vibration. Down the road I'm sure I'll upgrade when the car starts to be more and more track-dedicated.
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      05-08-2011, 12:57 AM   #20
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I have the poly red mounts with the bolts through them.....I drive EVERY day in NYC.....Love it. I cant hear jack anyways past the euro headers and rpi's...lol Rogue x pipe comming soon....I like to let it all hangout.
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      05-19-2011, 01:06 PM   #21
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I don't have any experience with the UUC poly as I have only used the UUC Black and Red Neoprene. The blacks did not introduce any noticeable NVH at all but the shifts felt more solid- I have installed these in my Z4M and my friend's E46 M3 with the same results.

I decided later to try the red Neoprene for a "little more" and found that if not installed perfect, meaning zero preload, there was some NVH. After some adjustments to get rid of the preload the NVH was still there but barely noticeable initially and even less so now.....maybe I'm used to it?

Both reds and blacks were installed with the enforcer cups although the cups needed a little tweaking to allow the zero preload condition. I'm not sure I would run cups if I had poly.

If I had to choose today I might go Rogue just because I think Neoprene is a better material for mounts for me. I may at some point upgrade the engine mounts to Rogue trying to get that "little more"
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      06-12-2011, 08:28 PM   #22
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My take on RE w/ enforcer cups here
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