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      01-02-2013, 11:13 AM   #67
bignosejim
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Here are a couple borrowed from Billswebspace (from his UUC enforcer cup install DIY):



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      01-02-2013, 12:02 PM   #68
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jim... thankyou bro!!!

ohh well this piece looks like i could take it off in about 20 mins, hell it look cheap enough for me to buy a new one and drive it over, its imo worth it to be the trial tester for the new item, doesnt look overly expensive ;-) and i would be able to order one and get it to them in like 5 days.... i'll ask the question tomorrow.

BTW my race and road mounts arrive friday :-)
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      01-02-2013, 03:31 PM   #69
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Thanks byron, this is going to be awesome.

Got my shipping notice for my engine mounts
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      01-02-2013, 03:48 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
Thanks byron, this is going to be awesome.

Got my shipping notice for my engine mounts
no probs, happy to help and more importantly cant wait to get that cross member on the car, i think coupled with the mounts we will have a very nice feeling drivetrain!! im SOOOOOOO pleased the aftermarket is slowly coming alive for the z4m!!! its really getting rather exciting now days!!
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      01-02-2013, 04:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
Thanks byron, this is going to be awesome.

Got my shipping notice for my engine mounts
Got my confirmation of order, but haven't shipped yet.
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      01-02-2013, 04:15 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
update, email conversation came to a head today, phil asked me to call tomorrow morning, i will be getting Both road and race sets of mounts by friday :-)
i will be installing the Race one first to get an ideal of how severe they are, i want to jump straight into these are i can see these will offer the "greatest" difference.....
i'm hoping they wont turn the car into a vibrating annoyance as id prefer to have the stiffer Race units on the car....

now looking at the compression charts for both mounts, the curve is very similar albeit, higher up the graph, i think the competition mounts should in theory Still be able more than DDable....

Also Re the cross member, as i dont want to drop my car off for months on end, im going to strip out the stock one off my car and drop it off, ill push phil and ask if i can do this sooner rather than later as the car is sat doing nothing....

anyone got a picture of the stock part?? i can remember off hand what it looks like :-)
BEEEDUBBB

I had a quick email exchange with Phil and he's strongly recommending I go with the road version as opposed to the race. I mentioned how added nvh is no matter if I'm getting stiff no slop awesome town feedback.

Will you keep us posted on your impressions of the race mounts? I still have 11 days before the group buy ends so I'll hold off on placing my order until then.

THANKS!!!
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      01-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zubydafa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
update, email conversation came to a head today, phil asked me to call tomorrow morning, i will be getting Both road and race sets of mounts by friday :-)
i will be installing the Race one first to get an ideal of how severe they are, i want to jump straight into these are i can see these will offer the "greatest" difference.....
i'm hoping they wont turn the car into a vibrating annoyance as id prefer to have the stiffer Race units on the car....

now looking at the compression charts for both mounts, the curve is very similar albeit, higher up the graph, i think the competition mounts should in theory Still be able more than DDable....

Also Re the cross member, as i dont want to drop my car off for months on end, im going to strip out the stock one off my car and drop it off, ill push phil and ask if i can do this sooner rather than later as the car is sat doing nothing....

anyone got a picture of the stock part?? i can remember off hand what it looks like :-)
BEEEDUBBB

I had a quick email exchange with Phil and he's strongly recommending I go with the road version as opposed to the race. I mentioned how added nvh is no matter if I'm getting stiff no slop awesome town feedback.

Will you keep us posted on your impressions of the race mounts? I still have 11 days before the group buy ends so I'll hold off on placing my order until then.

THANKS!!!
Phil really is vigorously putting people away from the race mounts, I guess...... He's doing that for a reason???? Ill report back after our conversation tomorrow morning. This will be a proper phone conversation where I will nail some finite details. I need to understand why he's so adamant the race units are such a no go.....
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      01-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #74
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Most likely, he has had customers that ordered race & were not happy and wants to avoid same.
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      01-02-2013, 05:07 PM   #75
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i want my car to be as racecar bc racecar as possible


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      01-03-2013, 06:56 AM   #76
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ok ZUB.... and everyone.... ive got some nice info on these, had a detailed conversation with phil, instead of everyone asking the same question, hes firstly putting together some literature and graphs, Re the two mounts, now....... what a very very interesting converation and an utterly company in general.... these guys are vibration master techs basically and even talking to him i can see this guy has a passion about what he does!!!

so ...... firstly.....

the road mounts..... These have been specifically tuned to damp out the Resonance and vibrations that tend to happen at idle, this is why he's recommending these to everyone, hes also saying none of this type of vibration/resonance testing has been done on the race, they MAYBE ok but let me tell you, hes strongly suggesting that these are not the best thing for a road z4m...... BUt in the interest of science..... ill be the guinea pig, But just listening to his tone change as we discuss the race mounts on a road car tells me alot imo!!!

So what will happen when i put the race mounts on my car???

Well that was the question i knew alot of you was PMing me about.... soooo i asked the man himself, well it seems, they MAY, repeat MAY create a resonance @ around idle speed that creates like a diesel type sensation, this will dissappear at higher revs but this is where the tuning has been done on the road mounts, they have made them as STIFF as they can and tuned, tuned tuned to get rid of the resonance.....

My set arrive tomorow, i will aim to get them fitted immediatly.....

The road set are around 4 X stiffer than stock, the Race set are around 8 X stiffer.

now what was interesting was the conversation about the stock Tranny mounts.... Well.... all the guys that have swapped this out may want to look away.... not only does Vibra-tech say these are an incredibly well designed piece, he also said they are hugely stiff!!!! it will take serious testing to better those mounts, everything from the shape to the construction is top notch and a design Dream.... That comes from the scientists At vibratech....

Phil isnt trying to put people off the race mounts, hes just warning that these are hardcore.

Due to my stock mounts being so young and low on miles... 11k ill jump straight into the race mounts and give my honest review on them... Due to the balance of the s54, they may, just May not be that bad..... But.... i wont hold my breath....

Now a very important statement.... Just because the mount is Stiffer, its not controlling engine movement any better in reality, that is from the man himself..... The road mounts seem to have a huge amount of time and effort to make them what they are and They will offer NO, repeat NO added NVH, which is imo, incredible.... The reviews on the m3 forum, show this is correct....

BTW, the inserts are so cheap, if i tried these out and you prefur them, just but the race inserts and be done :-)

excuse any typo's..... this was typed in haste :-)
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      01-03-2013, 07:04 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Most likely, he has had customers that ordered race & were not happy and wants to avoid same.
YES.... this is correct.... the competition mounts are just that, for competition cars!!!

i have more date being compiled by phil right now that i will post up shortly...


Very very very smart people.. how on earth have we missed them???
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      01-03-2013, 08:54 AM   #78
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Hey Beedub, I'm going to share this with M3F guys!
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      01-03-2013, 09:56 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
now what was interesting was the conversation about the stock Tranny mounts.... Well.... all the guys that have swapped this out may want to look away.... not only does Vibra-tech say these are an incredibly well designed piece, he also said they are hugely stiff!!!! it will take serious testing to better those mounts, everything from the shape to the construction is top notch and a design Dream.... That comes from the scientists At vibratech....
So what you are saying is that they say that the stock transmission mounts cannot be improved upon?
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      01-03-2013, 11:55 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
now what was interesting was the conversation about the stock Tranny mounts.... Well.... all the guys that have swapped this out may want to look away.... not only does Vibra-tech say these are an incredibly well designed piece, he also said they are hugely stiff!!!! it will take serious testing to better those mounts, everything from the shape to the construction is top notch and a design Dream.... That comes from the scientists At vibratech....
So what you are saying is that they say that the stock transmission mounts cannot be improved upon?
Nope not saying that, but.... It will be a hard task, Hence why they use a complete new cross member to improve things.
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      01-03-2013, 11:56 AM   #81
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As soon as I get in later ill post the data Phil sent me :-) very interesting stuff.
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      01-03-2013, 01:57 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
Nope not saying that, but.... It will be a hard task, Hence why they use a complete new cross member to improve things.
I posted about this here. The brace type of the transmission is a well proven setup, just putting stiffer bushings on there isn't going to really make it better.

I'm sure beedub will post more info (and graphs!) so we'll have even more information.
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      01-03-2013, 03:07 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
I posted about this here. The brace type of the transmission is a well proven setup, just putting stiffer bushings on there isn't going to really make it better.

I'm sure beedub will post more info (and graphs!) so we'll have even more information.
well ... you got it completely right....
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      01-03-2013, 03:22 PM   #84
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so here we go, from the man himself.

It was good to speak to you this morning. The parts are on the loaded dock ready to go. The com mounts have an orange colour code and nylock nuts on the bottom

I have cobbled together a couple of graphs which help (I hope) explain the way the engine mounts perform.

All engine mounts have a resonance condition, just like a road spring. The amount of resonance (magnification of vibration) depends on the damping. The graphs show different damping conditions. The more damping the lower the resonance amplitude but worse vibration isolation at higher engine speeds. Polyurethane is typically around .8 damping ratio and natural rubber (our mounts) are around .2. This gives significantly better engine vibration isolation performance for the same mount stiffness.

The Fast Road graph indicates the engine running range is in the "isolation" part of the graph where all engine vibration is isolated to some extent. The Competition" graph shows the resonance frequency falls in the running range of an engine but below the normal operating range for a race engine on the track. The extent to which this resonance if felt, and it tolerable depends on the balance and firing smoothness of the engine and tolerance of the driver!

We measure vibration when developing a mount system and work to OEM guidlines for vibration isolation performace.

I hope this helps.

Regrds

Phil B

ok heres some graphs




Anyone thats an engineer want to jump into this data a little deeper and chime in, please do.....

Re the tranny mounts, stock that is ;-)

I have just seen the post on the Z forum.

Regarding the transmission mount I would like to add the following.

The "wasted" design is an optimum shape for a bobbin type mount. It reduces the stresses adjacent to the edge of the bonded part and makes it less prone to pealing away. I don't think I have seen a single OEM mount failure that has not been down to some other factor such as oil contamination.

It also is relatively stiff for its size and the shape helps to distribute the stresses over the bond area. There is not enough space available to put a different design solution in there that is any better, we have spent hours looking at it.

The only way to improve it, by improve I mean reduce movement and make it fail safe, is to change the mount arrangement altogether and replacing the crossmember as well. BMW have done a great engineering job of the aluminium crossmember and it is super light but if we stiffen up the gearbox end it will have to take more fore-aft loads which means making it stronger so it may add some weight. It is something we want to look at but the E46 cross member that we have been working on has taught us that the characteristics are critical, especially for a road car. Its not just a case of throwing something in that's stiffer and hoping for the best.

It would be great to do a complete system



Now..... just to confirm the Fast road are 4x stiffer than stock the comp, are 8x stiffer than stock!!!! Thats serious!! lol!!! OF note is also that the only area thats of concern is the resonance that happens at around idle on the fast road this has been tuned by using a stiffest rubber possible before the resonance occurs, on the comp this resonance happens right at the idle rev range, so it MAY , repeat MAY..... make idle feel like a diesel Truck, but equally, they arent sure.... they may with the inherant balance of the straight 6 config be OK, im a hardcore typa guy and i will give you honest feedback on these....

unless their are absolutely unlivable i will most likely leave the comp ones in for the added stiffness and control of the motor, anyone with an FI s54 knows that the motor moves around abit, with the tight clearance of the s/c intake, i can just, and i mean just see an abrasion mark where it "brushes" the underside of the hood, this will only happen at the track when everything is red hot, so the added control for my engine is essential :-)

This is a lot of data for you all to take in so, discuss i guess!!
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      01-03-2013, 05:20 PM   #85
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Some good info here. So basically people with stock transmission mounts should just leave it alone and get the engine mounts if you want a bit more stiffness in the drivetrain? I've got RE transmission mounts.. i'm not gonna bother swapping them back to stock but i am gonna consider the Vibratechnic engine mounts.
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      01-03-2013, 07:48 PM   #86
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I'm no engineer, but after 30K miles the stock transmission mounts were rather spongy and soft in terms of feel. The feel of the shifter is better with the RE neoprene, and outside of track use, issues with finding second from third are pretty much gone on the street.

The transmission mounts used on the Z4 2.5 - M are exactly the same as well, and there's a big difference in engine torque in those models.

That said....

It may in fact be the case that motor movement and secondary movement in the drive train are the primary causes for denial of second, 1st to 2nd, and other shifting related woes. That wouldn't surprise me at all, since the engine is heavy, tall, and carries a lot of inertia. Not to mention torque--and a hell of a lot in Byron's case and for those with FI motors.

This may be why removing the softer (or softer over time/use) stock transmission mounts improves things to some degree, but is not a complete cure, especially on the track. I can't wait to see the results, this should really help improve things.

I'm in for two sets of these.
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      01-03-2013, 09:20 PM   #87
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Quote:
and outside of track use, issues with finding second from third are pretty much gone on the street.
Are you saying you still have issues 3-2 on the track? Me too...
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      01-03-2013, 09:44 PM   #88
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Quote:
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Are you saying you still have issues 3-2 on the track? Me too...
Yes. I don't notice it on the street anymore, but under track conditions it's a different story. The RE mounts helped a bit (and I like the feel much better than stock), but they did not eliminate the issue.

Good to know it's not just my crappy driving.
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