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      10-25-2012, 02:42 AM   #67
tikamak
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Just for more info, ROTREX develops really high boost on 3K RPM and holds on to it till the end of the rev range. that's why you get brutal power everywhere.

I invite ESS and VF owners to just sit in a AA or Gpower or custom ROTREX build car running an S54 ofc and see how much there's a difference in driveability between V3si builds and those. you will have that jaw drop face when you realize how the car behaves in just light throttle. I have that experience and i really would like you guys to find anyone near you and go inside their car for a ride.

IMO, V3si is suited for big engines that develop really high torque on 1K RPM and not so much at the end, the V3si will boost that low zone to make a true linear power. Remember in mathematics, linear power doesn't mean how much your curve is linear.

linear HP = Integral of (second derivative of the HP curve)
Linear TQ = Integral of (TQ curve)

Using these calculations, ESS and VF curve makes absurdly low HP and TQ.

Another reason why Gpower didn't go over 450HP was that high TQ on 3K RPM and up that will reduce the life of the engine by a good margin, if Gpower had used the T1-522 instead, they would have needed a low compression motor build just to go over 520HP on the Z4M.

IronZ4M, I really would like you to post your dyno sheet over here compared to the dyno of car when it was stock, i just need you to help me prove a point here and for my own personal knowledge as well. I have been studying the behavior of the S54 for a long time and it is a very very interesting engine.
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      10-25-2012, 06:22 AM   #68
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What? lol... I think your dyno is for an M54, not an S54. The M54 redlines at 7k rpm with most aftermarket centrifugal setups, and the S54 at 8k rpm. The S54 also produces a lot more than 261 whp on boost. Those aren't even stock numbers.

AA E46 M3 dyno:



VF Engineering:



Rotrex technical data (C38-81 used on the E46 M3): http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Technolog...ical_Data.aspx

There is no way "some guy" is pushing 350 lb-ft @ 2k rpm with a centri blower, or even pushing high boost at that rpm with a centri blower, period. It is not physically possible based on the way the blower develops boost. Either someone lied to him, or he's lying to you. If Rotrex centri blowers somehow magically made power down low, why would AA have ever pursued a twin screw design on the E46 non-M? Why do they use HKS blowers on the M3 now?

Regardless of what is said, all of the centrifugal superchargers are very similar. All of this crapping on Vortech is kinda getting annoying. The dyno graph OF ANY CENTRIFUGAL SUPERCHARGER on this engine will look similar to ESS's, regardless of what blower is used - peak power coming in at redline, virtually no change down low. That's why people go with turbochargers or twin screw setups. Sure, you can size things differently and limit your ceiling, gaining a little bit by keeping the blower in the ideal range where it's most efficient... at the end of the day, the car develops boost based on rpm. G-Power even offers an optional clutch that disconnects the blower at 1500 rpm, because it's not necessary at those speeds.

Never compare one manufacturer's claims to another. I doubt there's a drastic difference between the G-Power and VF480 setup. I accept that the G-Power blower is more appropriately sized to the kit, and that may make some difference, especially in the midrange. At the end of the day, they both generate power the same way using identical boost. Neither will generate absurd torque down low.

On a different note, Technique Tuning announced an E46 M3 turbo kit using the stock DME. Expected price is $9500 with race cats, which is a steal when you factor in the other things a turbo setup lets you avoid - specifically, aftermarket headers. FYI NickG is arguably the best BMW tuner out there. He is the only person to successfully develop and market an E46 non-M turbo kit that runs on the stock DME, and his kits get rave reviews. Now if they would just develop this for the Z4M...
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      10-25-2012, 06:33 AM   #69
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One more thing - to get 350 lb-ft at 2k rpm, he would have to be running 11 psi at 100% efficiency... on a centrifugal blower.
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      10-25-2012, 06:57 AM   #70
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mmm, I stand corrected and will check dyno sheets of my friend's drift car once i see him again.

He does develop quite high boost on low RPM, I don't know how :/

Thanks for the info pokeybritches
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      10-25-2012, 07:03 AM   #71
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If you could pull the dyno sheets it would be very helpful. Are you sure it's a Rotrex blower?
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      10-25-2012, 07:09 AM   #72
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YESS POKEY!!!

Tika.... im reallly sorry but your well well off here bro..... the vortech unit is sick, it justs needs more boost to be in its efficieny range due to it size... have you seem its flow rates??? maybe you should take a look ;-) the very reason we HAVE centri blowers is to keep the stock curve but move it up the graph!!!! were NOT looking for a turbo swell of Tq, well im not at least, linerar power is what i want....

you must not comment until youve driven some of these kits, let me tell you something, on a crisp cool say, my car feels like it has way more power/tq than i ever need!!! the 550 kits steps me right into the Tq range id like and its a cheap uprade at this point, like ive said the blower is in its efficiency range at this point, stop knocking the v3si, its only 50CFM off a T trim race unit for gods sake and offers silent operation, no oil connection issues, its freaking awesome!! Compare blower for blower and i can tell you, the large v3si makes some serious sense, the reason they use the large unit is to allow easy upgrade paths without having to swap it out when you start pushing it alittle more.... makes sense to me!!!

A centri blower making 350lbs @ 2k rpm???? NO A CHANCE!!! you have to stop talking about things your not clear on...

i can tell you know if you drive an s54 with the v3.... you'd stop the bashing.... the 445kit yeahh maybe, by in the higher kits.... power is linear, smooth, and heavy hitting, thats all i want.... you know those Tq rich blowers your talking about?? they fall short in other areas, you cant have your cake and eat it ;-) i DONT want a rotex, i DONT want a hks or ASA unit.... The vortech is perfect for what i use the car for and how i plan to move it forward :-)

their is no right and wrong here tika.... just different ways of getting it :-) i think you should just get the g-power and be done with it????
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      10-25-2012, 07:14 AM   #73
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love reading ur guys posts..
half the time i dont fully understand what ur talking about, but i enjoy them all the same
wish i could s'charge mine...
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      10-25-2012, 07:41 AM   #74
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just msged my friend on whatsapp, he's got an ASA T1-523 on full boost with a low compression built motor and cams :/, 350TQ is on 3000RPM 9PSI.

There are some M3s running VT2-550, i would say AA supercharged M3s feel more brutal.

Take it easy beedub, i'm not bashing V3si, i'm trying to lay it down to see if anyone can provide a counter-argument. I'm still in negotiation with ESS, not bashing their kit as it's the best hardware so far, with an oil cooler and air-to-air FMIC and a potential for custom low-compression motor builds.
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      10-25-2012, 08:52 AM   #75
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Here's a thread for you mates:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=419360

This thread shows what evolve has done for a VT2-500 E46 M3 guy running similar boost to beedub. Enjoy. This made my day
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      10-25-2012, 08:58 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
just msged my friend on whatsapp, he's got an ASA T1-523 on full boost with a low compression built motor and cams :/, 350TQ is on 3000RPM 9PSI.

There are some M3s running VT2-550, i would say AA supercharged M3s feel more brutal.

Take it easy beedub, i'm not bashing V3si, i'm trying to lay it down to see if anyone can provide a counter-argument. I'm still in negotiation with ESS, not bashing their kit as it's the best hardware so far, with an oil cooler and air-to-air FMIC and a potential for custom low-compression motor builds.
i know your not bashing , i think you typing style makes you come across like you are ;-)

i REALLY suggest you take alook at the compressor maps, you'll see the vortech unit is pretty freaking awesome!! have you seen its effiecieny percentage???? fantastic unit and in place with the ess hardware its awesome. IMO its the best ALL round kit. i have some pics for you when you get home, ive also got a few when the engine was hanging out!! lol!!
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      10-25-2012, 09:02 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Here's a thread for you mates:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=419360

This thread shows what evolve has done for a VT2-500 E46 M3 guy running similar boost to beedub. Enjoy. This made my day
i dont doubt it jad.... what youve got to understand its easy to max out a tune and make power.... whats not so easy is to get a nice safe, conservative tune with proper safety margins...;-) you NOT looking at the bigger picture... i could ring ess to max out my 500 tune.... advance the timing, lean it out its not hard. I prefur the ess approach imo.... i love evolve, they are awesome BUt, if they tune my kit or anyone elses, are they warrantying it against the aggressive tune??? Not a chance!

like i say..... look at the bigger picture.... ;-)
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      10-25-2012, 09:31 AM   #78
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SOMEBODY POST THE G-POWER DYNO CHART?

Yes, caps on purpose. This is crap without a dyno to compare!
I don't care about M3s, just MCs. I want to buy, but can't find any good facts yet.

I don't want to wait till April either.
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      10-25-2012, 09:39 AM   #79
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yeah maybe.

Anyone here wants to sell an ESS VT2-500 kit?
what's the difference between this and e46 M3 VT2-500 kit?
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      10-25-2012, 11:46 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
yeah maybe.

Anyone here wants to sell an ESS VT2-500 kit?
what's the difference between this and e46 M3 VT2-500 kit?
the pipework is different for the blower/intercooler. and the tune. it costs more i think due to the tune development costs. on my particular car we clocked the blower and re-made some of the pipework to make maintainance/install easier. The way the boost pipes snake around the cars parts is rather cool!!
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      10-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #81
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jad, these will have to do for right now until i get home to get the build pics from my mac book.













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      10-25-2012, 12:15 PM   #82
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What's a jad?
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      10-25-2012, 12:23 PM   #83
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a Jad is my name.
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      10-25-2012, 12:28 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by johanness View Post
What's a jad?
are you being intentionally disrespectful???
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      10-25-2012, 12:34 PM   #85
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No he's just from seattle, they don't have Jad's there :P
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      10-25-2012, 02:45 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Look i have found it:
ESS VT1-445 vs stock

Look at other types of superchargers like AA stage1 on and E46 M3:

Do you see how V3si coupled with ESS tune on S54 do not make any real power gain before 6000RPM? and it's almost as powerful as stock before 4500RPM.

While in the AA curve you have power and TQ everywhere?

This is a response on why i think V3si is not suitable for S54 (european high rev engine), try to use a ROTREX C38-91 supercharger on an S54 and check the curve on that, you will shit bricks I tell you. I have a guy over here in my country that has installed an S54 with this supercharger and custom tuning and intercooling and such for drift competition.

His car makes literally 350 lbs/ft on 2K RPM and upwards from that to a peak on 4700 RPM and then back to that on 8K. he drifts his car in 4th gear on some long slides, i was in the car witnessing this brutal power.

350 on 2K, fucking 350, believe that, he calls the car a catapult
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
YESS POKEY!!!

Tika.... im reallly sorry but your well well off here bro.....

A centri blower making 350lbs @ 2k rpm???? NO A CHANCE!!! you have to stop talking about things your not clear on...
^This
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      10-25-2012, 03:36 PM   #87
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byron...tht engine bay is sexual
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      10-25-2012, 03:45 PM   #88
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You shouldn't say that to me rated, you have a kit that should develop 570 without a fuel pump upgrade or even oil breather.

Don't imply that I'm clueless about what I'm saying, I'm just saying facts, not making up stuff...

I'm not interested in proving anything here, just discussing supercharger builds.
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