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      10-17-2012, 07:10 PM   #23
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Sorry beta, but I wish you understood the concepts without having to google everything. I was waiting for: the boost loss could be easily remedied with a pulley change, etc. Both systems have heat soak, but I'll take the air to water especially in the cooler winters where I live. As for the space problem, ess charges an additional $2k for the Z4M kit versus the E46 M3 kit because of different intercooler piping, etc. so for $2k extra, would you pick ess over VF? That's what made my decision for going with VF very easy.
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      10-17-2012, 07:17 PM   #24
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didn't know VF had a ready kit for our platform
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      10-17-2012, 07:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle
didn't know VF had a ready kit for our platform
A couple people are already running them (of course there's just about no feedback from those individuals). I'll give regular updates on mine when I receive it. I opted for the VF570 now as well...
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      10-17-2012, 10:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated M Roadster View Post
Sorry beta, but I wish you understood the concepts without having to google everything. I was waiting for: the boost loss could be easily remedied with a pulley change, etc. Both systems have heat soak, but I'll take the air to water especially in the cooler winters where I live. As for the space problem, ess charges an additional $2k for the Z4M kit versus the E46 M3 kit because of different intercooler piping, etc. so for $2k extra, would you pick ess over VF? That's what made my decision for going with VF very easy.
You're the one that's not getting it. Please re-read my posts and don't assume that because I can google I'm not understanding the material. Air-to-air is more efficient and results in lower charge temperature (unless you use ice water), if you don't get why you didn't read my posts or don't grok physics. Yes you have a little bit of boost loss, but it's made up by the lower charge temperature.

As to which kit? I'm still on the fence, IMO all the kits have pros and cons. I don't like that ESS won't sell you the intercooler separately and you have to buy stage 2.

My ideal kit would be:
a. Stealth. No logos, all textured black, OEM looking.
b. Air-to-Air intercooler.
c. ASA-like blower that produces tons of torque at low boost, but does not require you to cut into the engine oil.
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      10-17-2012, 11:06 PM   #27
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serious question that may sound stupid: Why dont they use a better fluid to dissipate the heat more quickly? run that through the cooling loop and you will have cold fluid every time (relatively speaking of course).

Water is crap as far as heat dissipation is concerned, its just readily available and not a hazard if leaks, seemingly the only reasons for its use... that i can see at least.
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      10-18-2012, 12:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txz4
Water is crap as far as heat dissipation is concerned, its just readily available and not a hazard if leaks, seemingly the only reasons for its use... that i can see at least.
Water has a higher heat capacity than air, and the ability to absorb heat as well. That's why it's in our radiators.
For me it's the TQ numbers that make this unit a winner, provided it can be verified.
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      10-18-2012, 12:42 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
You're the one that's not getting it. Please re-read my posts and don't assume that because I can google I'm not understanding the material. Air-to-air is more efficient and results in lower charge temperature (unless you use ice water), if you don't get why you didn't read my posts or don't grok physics. Yes you have a little bit of boost loss, but it's made up by the lower charge temperature.
Wait, my last post didn't argue any of your statements. You had no idea that an air to water system had a radiator to recirculate, or that an air to air system loses boost through piping. But I'm not getting it? Either way, I don't think we can decide which is better without side by side testing in identical conditions. I need to put a pre and post intercooler IAT sensors and see what mine will be...

Also txz4, BMW uses coolant/distilled water in their air to water systems; water is the best fluid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
Water has a higher heat capacity than air, and the ability to absorb heat as well. That's why it's in our radiators.
For me it's the TQ numbers that make this unit a winner, provided it can be verified.
I'm also waiting for the dyno sheet. G power's kit is rated at 450 hp and 340 tq at the crank, so I'm calling BS that IronZ made 345 tq to the wheels... hopefully I'm wrong.
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      10-18-2012, 01:32 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
Water has a higher heat capacity than air, and the ability to absorb heat as well. That's why it's in our radiators.
For me it's the TQ numbers that make this unit a winner, provided it can be verified.
+1

Corrosion prevention, lowering the freezing temp, and raising the boiling temp are all reasons to add coolant to the water... not because water lacks the ability to absorb heat. A lot of track guys run 100% distilled water in their radiators.
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      10-18-2012, 02:20 AM   #31
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interesting debate.... my current fave kits are the 500/550 kits (not available in the usa) and the g-power kit... 345 Tq at the wheels the wheels though?? nahhhhhhh cant believe it!!

Re the intercooling, a proper FMIC air to air will always be superior, one of the best reasons is a simple recovery time, heat up the air to air set-up, and it'll recover far faster and get temps down quicker, air-water is great up-to a point but once that water heats up.... im willing to bet 100 bucks a track session with a 500-550 inter-cooled car with its very large intercooler will show lower AITs than a similar water-based setup.

when i look to rally based teams, mitsubishi, subaru, citroen, they all place huge damands on their AIT cooling systems and choose air-air, then for me, the latest high tech supercar the gtr, comes with air-air.... even when bumped upto 1500hp, they still use air-air.... this says alot imo!! its soooo flexible as well... bigger pipework, bigger core, bigger endtanks, you can really tweak an air -air setup...

the VF/gpower manifold has cores inside it.... this WILL be a restriction theirs no way around it....

In any instance where a proper sized fmic can be used, id take that option... but they do have their pitfalls as well imo.......boost losses, complex pipework routing, maybe heavier??? not to sure on that one.

i suppose really their is no wrong and right way... but for me, fmic works and is tried and tested....

btw think my car will be the first 550 spec z4m on here maybe?? i WISH g-power offered an upgrade path.... the Tq rich asa unit just makes me want it!!!
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      10-18-2012, 02:22 AM   #32
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^^^^ excuse my typo's... typing this quick time before work!!

arhhhhh ive missed zpost!! lol
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      10-18-2012, 05:08 AM   #33
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Hi Guys again, please stop the bickering over what inter-cooler setup is best. It is widely known that Air-to-Air setups IN GENERAL is superior than Air-to-Water setups when you are not icing and dragging

HOWEVER, some Air-to-Water inter-coolers can have more effective heat cycling than Air-to-Air FMIC, so many physics involved. Some Air-to-Water setups can also be more effective than others.

txz4: Water is used because it is the liquid with the highest double heat exchange modifiers and the least expensive and requires standard materials to be pumped circulated and contained. To clarify, inside the charge cooler, water is super effective at grabbing the heat from the hot charge (throught Alumnium); at the FMIC, it is the also super effective at releasing the heat when cold air contacts with hot water (throught Alumnium).

Now I've been thinking for ages now about that and i might decide to build my own super efficient sub zero temps intercooler ala Lutz performance style and that idea will be used pretty widely if I can keep the cost down
It is still in research phase.


What we are comparing here today is:
ESS - AtoA
VF - AtoW
Gpower - AtoW

You cannot say ESS > all just because AtoA is superior to AtoW, you have to check efficiency.
What I can say about all 3 is that all 3 cooling methods are adequate, all 3 will heat soak maybe at different rates but it is not that much of an issue.

Please take other aspects than cooling of the kits, like performance, driveabilty, price vs kit aspects.
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      10-18-2012, 07:49 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Hi Guys again, please stop the bickering over what inter-cooler setup is best. It is widely known that Air-to-Air setups IN GENERAL is superior than Air-to-Water setups when you are not icing and dragging

HOWEVER, some Air-to-Water inter-coolers can have more effective heat cycling than Air-to-Air FMIC, so many physics involved. Some Air-to-Water setups can also be more effective than others.

txz4: Water is used because it is the liquid with the highest double heat exchange modifiers and the least expensive and requires standard materials to be pumped circulated and contained. To clarify, inside the charge cooler, water is super effective at grabbing the heat from the hot charge (throught Alumnium); at the FMIC, it is the also super effective at releasing the heat when cold air contacts with hot water (throught Alumnium).

Now I've been thinking for ages now about that and i might decide to build my own super efficient sub zero temps intercooler ala Lutz performance style and that idea will be used pretty widely if I can keep the cost down
It is still in research phase.


What we are comparing here today is:
ESS - AtoA
VF - AtoW
Gpower - AtoW

You cannot say ESS > all just because AtoA is superior to AtoW, you have to check efficiency.
What I can say about all 3 is that all 3 cooling methods are adequate, all 3 will heat soak maybe at different rates but it is not that much of an issue.

Please take other aspects than cooling of the kits, like performance, driveabilty, price vs kit aspects.
wheres the bickering about AIT cooling method??? anyhow i agree.... time to move onto a sub subject Re this thread....

dont get stage 1 ess imo.... the big vortech NEEDS 9+ lbs imo to really start to see real benefits.... i'll provide some new data and threads soon when my 550 setup is on route :-) i had the final piece of the money come through as yesterday was my borthday
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      10-18-2012, 07:58 AM   #35
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Must be nice...
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      10-18-2012, 07:58 AM   #36
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I think the gpower kit is underrated, or iron is running higher boost. Watching his videos, he goes sideways 5 feet at full throttle in 2nd gear, and beats up on an HPF car. Thats big torque
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      10-18-2012, 08:42 AM   #37
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I don't think he's running higher boost. I think that since it is a small supercharger (ASA T1-521 580HP) compared to the 750HP and 725HP V3Si and V3Sq the ASA is reaching the efficiency zone and can generate more torque than a big unit that is merely compressing little air compared to what it can generate.
Once you go VT3-600, you will have a much richer TQ curve and will be using the Vortech's capabilities.
IMO, if you don't go ESS VT3-600, using a V3si is practically the most stupid supercharging decision you can make, i don't understand ESS when they use a big unit and not allow people to upgrade.

Not that the little Z4M can handle more than 500rwhp and 380TQ to the ground. You will start needing bodywork with slicks to be able to keep that power down and certainly not track it with the stock diff :P

I have always had a fascination of tuners like Gpower, AA, Evolve. Those people do not think how much would a kit cost. they think what are the limitations and what is needed to break them and what can make a car different and more exciting to drive.

IMO, evolve and AA not participating in this supercharging business (Z4M) is probably because of all the low cost low quality kits available.
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      10-18-2012, 08:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle View Post
I think the gpower kit is underrated, or iron is running higher boost. Watching his videos, he goes sideways 5 feet at full throttle in 2nd gear, and beats up on an HPF car. Thats big torque
i think that hpf was a stage 1 car, right?
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      10-18-2012, 08:59 AM   #39
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Yes, it's a stage 1 running on 91 pum gas as stated by iron
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      10-18-2012, 09:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub
i'll provide some new data and threads soon when my 550 setup is on route :-) i had the final piece of the money come through as yesterday was my borthday
It's a race my VF570 kit is being built right now (upgraded from the 480 before it ever shipped).
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      10-18-2012, 09:20 AM   #41
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Can you please PM me your cost?
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      10-18-2012, 09:21 AM   #42
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Quote:
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IMO, evolve and AA not participating in this supercharging business (Z4M) is probably because of all the low cost low quality kits available.
No, AA doesn't supply z4m (or z4) supercharging kits because of the different DME. They virtually have a fitting kit as they sell a supercharging kit for an E46 m3 (and a kit for the e46 330i), so hardware isn't the problem as they have it lying on the shelf (same engines). If it fits in an e46, it fits better in a z4 (more room under the hood).

They probably never developed software for the mss70 DME (z4m) or ms45 DME (z4).

Too bad because they really run on high pressure.
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      10-18-2012, 09:48 AM   #43
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Yeah maybe
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      10-18-2012, 11:17 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated M Roadster View Post
It's a race my VF570 kit is being built right now (upgraded from the 480 before it ever shipped).
really looking forward t it, during the same time ill get my CSL cams in and hook up the meth :-)
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