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      10-09-2012, 06:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by gtMc View Post
Just read this thread now. Dan seems like you have come a long way from when you started this. I have a lot to work on, thanks for the pointers earlier (and to everyone else's info here too - Great stuff!)
Thanks man, like I said always helps having someone show you in person as opposed to reading about it.
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      10-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by DSC_OFF View Post
Been trying different things this past weekend and I noticed angling my foot just doesn't come easy to me. I'm sure it's just something I need to practice but I think I'm going to stick with what I've been doing... that is to keep the foot straight and just roll it slightly to the right to blip throttle. I just have to make a conscious effort to apply brake with the ball of my foot, which will give me enough "foot" to roll onto throttle, as opposed to braking with my foot dead center.

Another thing I found helpful is that it's not necessary to shift/blip simulatenously. On the street I can do the motions fast enough but on the track, on deeper braking zones I still find that [1] brake -> [2] (keep foot on brake) + downshift -> [3] still keeping clutch and brake in -> [4] THEN blip and let clutch out to be smoother. Ideally, those last 3 steps should be fast/seemless but I find delaying the last 2 steps allows for an easier/smoother heel-toe. Yes I know, I'm still a noob on track lol.
Hey Dan,
I had the same issues as you. I have a size 12-13 foot, so using my heel to blip the throttle is impossible since my heel hits the tunnel and it's impossible for me to hit the throttle!
I use the same metheod as you do for heel-toe. With your last two steps where you're having issues, once you blip the throttle (or hit it) get the clutch out FAST! Don't delay or ease it out. Once you hit the throttle and the revs climb just let the clutch fly and it'll be much more seamless.
One of my instructors pointed it out several years ago and it made a huge difference in ease/smoothness.
Personally, I wait to do my downshift until right before I want to get onto the throttle. So I brake HARD to start and then begin to tailor off. Once I'm tailoring off is when I'll start my heel-toe downshift. I'll get it done and then be ready to get back on the throttle right away, no delays. This way I can conscentrate on the hard braking zone and set myself up for the exit. It is more of a step-by-step routine, but it simplifies things and lets me be smoother.
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      10-11-2012, 09:03 AM   #25
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I found this video very helpful. I'll NEVER be able to replicate the way Senna does it, but I work very hard to get close. I can learn something everytime i see this.
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      10-18-2012, 09:52 PM   #26
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So in an earlier post, someone said they like downshifting sequentially for a 5-4-3 shift while another said just brake in 5 and blip to 3 later. If the braking zone is that long, brake in neutral, then blip to 3.
The idea is a moving engine has mechanical momentum that the rear brakes have to slow. Neutral and you slowing only the car.
I bought an oem brake pedal, cut the pedal off the arm, and bolted the pedal I cut to the existing pedal with washers as shims. Now rolling my foot is easy and I'm using my stock pedal pad. Total mod cost was under $40!
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      10-19-2012, 12:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipman View Post
So in an earlier post, someone said they like downshifting sequentially for a 5-4-3 shift while another said just brake in 5 and blip to 3 later. If the braking zone is that long, brake in neutral, then blip to 3.
The idea is a moving engine has mechanical momentum that the rear brakes have to slow. Neutral and you slowing only the car.
I bought an oem brake pedal, cut the pedal off the arm, and bolted the pedal I cut to the existing pedal with washers as shims. Now rolling my foot is easy and I'm using my stock pedal pad. Total mod cost was under $40!
If you're on track you should always keep the time you're in the clutch to a minimum and NEVER spend any time in neutral. And in a manual while braking in gear it actually takes less brake energy to slow the car down because the engine supplies compression braking.
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      10-19-2012, 10:50 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipman View Post
I bought an oem brake pedal, cut the pedal off the arm, and bolted the pedal I cut to the existing pedal with washers as shims. Now rolling my foot is easy and I'm using my stock pedal pad. Total mod cost was under $40!
Pictures?
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      10-20-2012, 09:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
If you're on track you should always keep the time you're in the clutch to a minimum and NEVER spend any time in neutral. And in a manual while braking in gear it actually takes less brake energy to slow the car down because the engine supplies compression braking.
a rookie question here.... I have always liked this ^ method and this is how I slow down (braking while in gear) on the street. A question though... is it bad technique to intentionally NOT rev match or blip prior to letting out the clutch during a downshift, for the reason of using the engine to slow the car down into a turn and then gently get back on the throttle near the apex? basically, engine braking into the turn to supplement brake pedal. One main issue I find is that its hard to do this smoothly and its probably rough on the clutch. hmmm, maybe i just anwered my own question...

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I'm the same way. I find my sequential brake-then-rev technique to be precise and good enough for me. I can spend more time thinking about my line than worrying about my foot placement.
Been working on this ^. it just seems to feel pretty good on the road and its easier to start out with.
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      10-27-2012, 02:07 PM   #30
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The video just posted at the top of this thread over in the main section has a great quick section of heel-toe on an M with OEM pedals on it. @ ~1:16 or so

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthre...1#post12902442
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      10-28-2012, 09:42 AM   #31
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Try to initiate your blips earlier in the braking zone. If I had to downshift I'm blipping almost as soon as I start braking, so that you won't be too deep into the pedal yet.
Agreed.
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      10-31-2012, 09:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Do you have the upper extension, lower one or the whole extension?

Have you ever caught the gas pedal by accident when you were braking?

My biggest problem at Mid-Ohio (only 1 track day in my belt here), when I was going from the keyhole into china beach (~130mph) I was braking, blip the throttle 4 -> 3, but as I did that I'd actually lift on the braking....which kinda gave me a 2 stage braking. Very frustrating and I really need to work on it
Sometimes this can be a problem for me as well. This two stage braking is really unsettling the car and affecting smoothness so I have really tried to get rid of it.

Also, just out of curiosity, who has found heel and toe'n easier with the CDV valve delete? I would imagine it would be smoother.
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      03-03-2013, 08:23 PM   #33
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A friend of mine just sent me this video link, an E46 with a heel-toe cam installed, this is the clearest video I have seen that demonstrates it. I dont know the driver, but the track is Lightning@ NJMP, and he is a friend of a friend I guess. And he passes a red ///M coupe early on... Enjoy.

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      03-03-2013, 09:03 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by herragge View Post
Sometimes this can be a problem for me as well. This two stage braking is really unsettling the car and affecting smoothness so I have really tried to get rid of it.

Also, just out of curiosity, who has found heel and toe'n easier with the CDV valve delete? I would imagine it would be smoother.
Sorry for extended delayed response, but I don't have the CDV delete.

I think I'm going to put grip-tape on my brake pedal so I don't get nervous of my foot slipping off the pedal. I think that's half my problem...since I can't really heel-toe like the video above (I wear 11.5 puma driving shoes) I use half my foot for brakes and half of blip.

It seems like I have to roll my foot forever to blip it enough, and to the point where I think I'm going to slip off the brake
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      03-04-2013, 12:31 AM   #35
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Sorry for extended delayed response, but I don't have the CDV delete.

I think I'm going to put grip-tape on my brake pedal so I don't get nervous of my foot slipping off the pedal. I think that's half my problem...since I can't really heel-toe like the video above (I wear 11.5 puma driving shoes) I use half my foot for brakes and half of blip.

It seems like I have to roll my foot forever to blip it enough, and to the point where I think I'm going to slip off the brake
A lot of people do it this way and you will get good enough that you won't think about it and you'll put it exactly where you want it.

Grip tape my prevent the foot dancing on the pedals for trail braking and left foot braking.

Btw. He only blips the throttle for down shifting. There is a lot more to do with the feet.
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      03-04-2013, 12:49 AM   #36
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A lot of people do it this way and you will get good enough that you won't think about it and you'll put it exactly where you want it.

Grip tape my prevent the foot dancing on the pedals for trail braking and left foot braking.

Btw. He only blips the throttle for down shifting. There is a lot more to do with the feet.
I'm slowly learning to do left foot braking. The advantages are HUGE in autocross so I need to get it down.

All-in-all, I just need to practice. Only way it will get better.
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      03-04-2013, 12:57 PM   #37
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I'm slowly learning to do left foot braking. The advantages are HUGE in autocross so I need to get it down.

All-in-all, I just need to practice. Only way it will get better.
I used to go to industrial parks on the weekends and drive around the corners at 25mph practicing. It harder and safer at those speeds. It makes it easier and works the subconcious which makes it easier to duplicate at the track.
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      03-04-2013, 01:22 PM   #38
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A friend of mine just sent me this video link, an E46 with a heel-toe cam installed, this is the clearest video I have seen that demonstrates it. I dont know the driver, but the track is Lightning@ NJMP, and he is a friend of a friend I guess. And he passes a red ///M coupe early on... Enjoy.

That's me in the red M Coupe
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      03-06-2013, 12:28 AM   #39
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^ Very impressive technique.

I'm 6'5" and wear a 14 Puma Speedcat. My legs nearly brush the steering wheel with my seat as far back as it will go. H/T is physically impossible for me, but I want to perform the best alternative technique. I don't think I will ever "get" the side-of-foot blip either.

This is what I currently do: Brake until apex > double-clutch/rev-match > exit. Don't ask me why I double-clutch. It feels natural to me and makes me feel safe that I won't destroy anything if I get it wrong.

I lose a lot of time doing this and I know there is a better technique, but I have a hard time getting my head around it. What is the best technique knowing I need to take my foot off the brake to do it? The best sequence I can think of is: (after finish braking) clutch in > downshift > blip > clutch out > exit -- in one smooth motion. Or does blip come before downshift?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
once you blip the throttle (or hit it) get the clutch out FAST! Don't delay or ease it out. Once you hit the throttle and the revs climb just let the clutch fly and it'll be much more seamless. One of my instructors pointed it out several years ago and it made a huge difference in ease/smoothness.
This scares me shitless.

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Personally, I wait to do my downshift until right before I want to get onto the throttle. So I brake HARD to start and then begin to tailor off. Once I'm tailoring off is when I'll start my heel-toe downshift. I'll get it done and then be ready to get back on the throttle right away, no delays. This way I can conscentrate on the hard braking zone and set myself up for the exit. It is more of a step-by-step routine, but it simplifies things and lets me be smoother.
I identify with this the best (substituting my double-clutch for the H/T bit).
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      03-06-2013, 04:56 AM   #40
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I have been tracking for 6 years now... And most of my past instructors told me my heel & toe was perfect or near perfect. The thing is... I don't heel and toe... i have never heeled and toed. I guess my rev timing is very good. We always had a laugh when I told them the truth about my lack of heel & toe prowess.
...while that's fine and all if you don't want to:

instructors can't pick up if you're not heel toeing? pretty easy to tell if someone's heel toeing in the braking zone after a long straight. unless they're really oblivious or you're left foot braking.
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      04-25-2013, 06:07 PM   #41
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MacGyver approach to heel toe

I know this is an old thread...

Last year I was having the same problem as I am 6'2" with big feet. Heel toe would be easy if driving on the street because I was using light brake pedal pressure. Any threshold braking and the brake pedal would dip too far below the accelerator to blip the throttle, and i wouldn't want to use anything less than 3/4 of my foot for fear if it slipping off the rubber pedal cover.

So I picked up a set of TMS aluminium pedal covers that have little spikes to grab your shoe. To fix the problem with the brake pedal, I bought a pair of flip-flops from my local convenience store, used a knife and cut out the shape of the pedal to make a 3/4" shim to rest between the actual pedal and aluminum pedal cover and....Presto! problem solved. The flip-flop is firm (and cheap) enough to not flex or give a mushy pedal feel, but easy enough to cut with a serrated knife to make the job easy.

Now when threshold braking, the brake pedal lines up perfectly that I can blip the throttle, and the aluminum spikes grab onto my shoe so that it WILL NOT slip off
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      04-26-2013, 12:05 PM   #42
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Flip flop material is a little soft. Did you try using the original rubber that was on the peddles and drilling through to mount the covers?

May be a better option, since the flip will soon break down.
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      04-26-2013, 12:26 PM   #43
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...or just use a longer screw with a nut sleeved over, in between the 2 pieces.
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      04-26-2013, 05:22 PM   #44
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Flip Flop

The flip-flop I used was/is firm(they probably wouldn't have been the most comfortable to wear), there has been no breakdown in close to a year, with multiple track days on them. I did use a long screw/nut combo and had to drill into the metal pedal and tightened it all up. Since 3 screws are used and its all tightened up quite a bit, there is absolutely no slop/flex in the pedal under hard braking (the last thing I want when coming down from 120+mph with only the left half of my foot on the pedal).

for the clutch pedal I drilled though the rubber cover and through metal pedal and put the supplied screws through it with with lock nuts on the reverse.

Just thought it was a relatively low cost option to my dilemma that didn't involve placing a cover that effectively decreased the distance between the accelerator and brake
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