Rallyroad Porsche caliper conversion

[nobrakese28]

Hey folks,

Is any one running this kit? If so do you like/love it?


http://www.rallyroad.net/content/e46...apter-brackets
http://www.rallyroad.net/content/e46...rembo-brackets

I don't think you can beat the price. You could probably do a front and rear kit for under 1500.

-Marco

[nekky]

Yep so cheap.

What I've heard is that the Porsche calipers are not built with proper 50/50 weight distribution brake bias.

But I'm not an engineer, so I really have no idea. Can anyone else chime in? This probably is the cheapest way to fit Brembos on the car.

[mfanatic325]

I wouldn't waste time on a kit that isn't meant for our specific car to begin with. The design criteria are different for every car, and only those engineered specifically for the car should be considered; otherwise you'd be seriously risking performance from OEM standards.

It's okay to go with more knock-off type mods when they're tried and true or you fully understand the benefits/consequences. In the case of brakes, I would no forego the superb OEM setup for a kit that's meant to be on some other car; even if it were plug and play and/or super cheap...

All in all, this seems like a ghetto way of going about it
I would only potentially consider doing something like this if I knew the car needed bling and it was strictly a show car and I couldn't afford the real units made for the car specifically.

[mfanatic325]

Here's a discussion between a tuner and Brembo:

Q: We've noticed a trend lately for car tuners and enthusiasts to use big calipers and rotors off of other sports cars like Porsches, etc. Although this may look cool, can you help our followers understand what the downside is to retrofitting calipers and rotors in this manner? Presumably without a properly matched master cylinder and proportioning valves, braking performance can actually decrease as a result of this kind of retrofit?

BREMBO: The first thing to consider in regards to the brake system is safety. There is a very large misconception that any caliper can be used on any vehicle as long as it can be made to physically bolt up in some manner. However, there are vast differences in braking systems between vehicles, and often in ways that would not be predicted. For example a Subaru WRX has approximately 30% more brake piston area than a Porsche 911. Taking a caliper from that Porsche application and applying it to a WRX (all other things being equal) would result in a 30% reduction in braking torque and a significant (and very unsafe) shift of brake balance to the rear of the vehicle.
Furthermore the calipers are designed for specific operating conditions. A fundamental one is the brake disc thickness. In a great many cases we see calipers being used on discs that are thinner than what they have been designed for. In these cases, once the pads and the disc have worn the first thing that can happen is the brake pads move past the abutment surfaces on the caliper resulting in damage or brake failure. It is also possible that the pistons move completely past the seals in the caliper resulting in complete and catastrophic brake failure. Additionally, the caliper bodies themselves are built to withstand the structural requirements of their intended application. We have seen instances where calipers are being used far outside the bounds of their design loads.
The ABS system is also designed to function optimally only within the parameters of the original braking system. By using components that are well outside these bounds, especially as it relates to fluid volume (which is impacted by caliper piston area, caliper stiffness, etc) the ABS system performance suffers.
In doing these conversions, it is also necessary to produce adapters in order to mount these components. These components need to be designed, analyzed, and tested in order to prove their integrity for the lifetime of the system. Even if the components chosen to adapt are appropriate, without this very important detail, the system could also be extremely unsafe and experience a catastrophic failure.

[nobrakese28]

Agreed. The UUC Alcon kit is looking pretty nice. They have 15-20% off sales pretty often, since my rotors are almost new I could probably order the kit w/o them.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by nobrakese28

Agreed. The UUC Alcon kit is looking pretty nice. They have 15-20% off sales pretty often, since my rotors are almost new I could probably order the kit w/o them.

I had the UUC Alcon kit but got rid of it. First time they sent me the wrong brackets and questioned my ability to install the hardware (they later confirmed they sent the wrong brackets after I sent them back).

But even when they sent the correct brackets, something didn't seem right as everytime I'd touch the brakes, you'd see the whole rotor and caliper MOVE, like it'd make a sudden twitch forward and return to its position once the car's weight settled. This movement was also accompanied by a knocking noise. They would not address the movement, again write it off as "faulty" install and said the noise was nothing more than the pads need shimming. It was quite obvious the noise and movement were both related but they refused to take back the kit. Knowing I was tracking the car, I didn't want to take a chance so had to break up the kit and sell them individually for a fraction of my cost (I let buyer know of my circumstance so he got the calipers dirt cheap off me).

Bottom line, stay away from UUC. Go Stoptech, Brembo, AP, etc.

[Kgolf31]

This is a popular modification with the E36 M crowd. I don't see this as being "cheap" at all IMO

[mfanatic325]

sad to hear about that...yet another UUC customer service ultra fail FTL.

I suppose that the Alcon kit thy offer wasn't originally designed for our cars? Hence the mixup with the wrong bracketing, etc.?

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

This is a popular modification with the E36 M crowd. I don't see this as being "cheap" at all IMO

Well at the end of the day, the "kit" they piece together wasn't engineered with their specific car in mind, nor intended for its purpose/application, so I guess take it as you may. But I for one would not spend time, money, nor effort to go for such and option. Would rather get a proper kit from the get-go. They may even be better off with their original OEM setup with the use of upgraded lines, pads, or rotors.
Brakes are too important to take any risks on. Tires for example are a slightly different case. We can predict what the outcome would be with the swap of tires, but not brake calipers designed for a totally different car.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Well at the end of the day, the "kit" they piece together wasn't engineered with their specific car in mind, nor intended for its purpose/application, so I guess take it as you may. But I for one would not spend time, money, nor effort to go for such and option. Would rather get a proper kit from the get-go. They may even be better off with their original OEM setup with the use of upgraded lines, pads, or rotors.
Brakes are too important to take any risks on. Tires are the same case.
Just because a lot of people go that route doesn't make it a good decision necessarily, right? Tons of people commit suicide each year, but does that mean others should follow suit? Not necessarily

What's the difference then with upgrading brake pads and putting aggressive track pads on front and aggressive street pads in the rear? What about just upgrading pads in general?

You take the same risks when you upgrade tires, alignment, suspension...etc. Whether it's designed for the car or not, you're changing how the car behaves. Is this not the case?

I never said "Hey, I'm going to get this". More so, it's been done with success many times.

I have a sway bar from an E46 M3. It wasn't designed for my car...but it works pretty darn well.

[mfanatic325]

The difference is in the caliper and bracketing difference in engineered specs and supposed usage/load/etc.
When swapping pads, lines, fluid, or rotor, there are consequences as well, but the calipers, pistons, and brackets are still OEM and that in itself makes a huge difference as compared to calipers that came off another car that could've been very different in layout/dynamics.
Swapping to calipers that aren't designed for your car can result in catastrophic failure and if you can't stop your car when you're at speed or in an emergency, you're pretty much screwed. Tires are not built for specific cars, and are not exclusive, so that can't even be compared. As for sway bar, it's not life threatening even if it fails. They're to improve handling, but not a major part of a vehicle's safety system like brakes are.

All of the things you mentioned also have consequences. However, unlike calipers from a different car, there is a degree of certainty with the other kinds of upgrades. As Brembo mentioned in the interview, there are much more unknowns when it comes to caliper fitment and usage, and it's just too big a risk compared to other modifications on a car.

So unless one is an expert on brake design/implementation, I would be skeptical that they truly grasp the true consequences of piecing together such a "kit".

Alignment? There really isn't such a thing as alignment designed for a car. It's pretty much just a compromise between aggressive or not. And of course anyone in their right minds wouldn't stray far from a normal acceptable amount. Can't really get this wrong unless one is extremely negligent or lacks common sense.
Suspension is built around a car, so that's a valid point. However, it's rarely the case that one hears of transplants from one car for use in a different car unless it's some sort of full-on race car build or some one-off project, in which case they have their reasons for doing so; and it's usually because they've already researched the risks/benefits involved.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you need me to explain this to you?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you need me to explain this to you?

No need for explanation, just pointing out that I've seen other stuff that has been far worse than this and the OP is getting serious flak about it.

I'll agree that safety is the key note here, how ever with a simple brake bias controller you can dial in the correct specs. I will agree too that there isn't really any known limit for those brackets. It would be interesting to do a stress analysis to see when it will ultimately fail.

[dubsesd]

i was in the same boat. at first i considered upgrading pads/lines and fluids. then i looked at upgrading the calipers with custom brakets. the more i thought about it, the more uneasy i got. i ended up getting a stoptech 6 piston/4 piston kitt with 355x32 rotors and all accesories. i had stoptechs on my last car and there wasnt a moment that they dissapointed me. since stoptech is also an oem parts supplier for lexus, reliability was another selling factor for me

[mfanatic325]

I personally had already gone with upgraded fluid and lines myself. Then prior to a track day few months ago, I stumbled upon my current Brembos, so I got those instead and sold my relatively new rotors to a local buddy. So unfortunately I didn't get to test them out.
I was running all stock everything for the longest time just for the sake of squeezing every last penny out of the stealershit via warranty lol
It was marvelous aside from the fact that they were reluctant on giving me front replacement rotors even though I beat on my other set as hard as I could. They ended up only giving me a few sets of pads and a pair of rear rotors and I had to buy my own OEM fronts

[schwank]

someone needs to try this, I want toaster brakes bad lol

[dubsesd]

most vendors stop selling these becasue they only used rotora pads and are noisy as hell. there were too many customer complaints