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      03-26-2012, 08:28 AM   #1
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Z4M VF supercharger

http://vf-engineering.com/other-bmw/z4m/

thoughts?
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      03-26-2012, 08:43 AM   #2
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vf hardware is about as good as it gets theirs stuff is proper quality.......

They were damaged along time ago by their tunes which blew a number of motors, from what ive heard the tune is now bang on.... This would definitely be an option for me BUT i dont like the water cooling intakes, they offer no scope for more power and recoverytimes are slower than a fmic...... i'll always choose a setup with fmic, this allows simple future upgrades and meth/water injection as a charge cooler, the only downside to the fmic is theirs alot of pipework to squeeze in.... but its worth the effort :-)
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      03-26-2012, 09:19 AM   #3
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I've been going back and forth between the VF-480 kit and the ESS Vt-2 500 kit....I like the idea of the charged cooling within the intake manifold AND the front mount. It seems appropriately priced right between the ESS VT1-445/VT2-500....not sure what I want to do!
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      03-26-2012, 09:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Maniac
I've been going back and forth between the VF-480 kit and the ESS Vt-2 500 kit....I like the idea of the charged cooling within the intake manifold AND the front mount. It seems appropriately priced right between the ESS VT1-445/VT2-500....not sure what I want to do!
The liquid exchanger is at the front which cools the intake exchanger, its not the same as a fmic.... Its liquid to air as opposed to air - air.

Its not double cooling if you get me....
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      03-26-2012, 10:56 AM   #5
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I recon the air-water cooling is more effective at cooling low boost applications.
Do you agree beedub?

I think that you will need an air-air FMIC once you go higher than 9psi or something like that.
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      03-26-2012, 11:38 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
I recon the air-water cooling is more effective at cooling low boost applications.
Do you agree beedub?

I think that you will need an air-air FMIC once you go higher than 9psi or something like that.
i think its fair to say both have their merits and i personally think alot of times the air-water is used due to space constraints, its take alot of r&D to get those pipes snaking around the engine bay and fitting perfectly, then all the brackets that have to line up with the boostpiping for the air-air setup ect ect.....

air-air has a quicker recovery time, allows meth/water injection, much easier to upgrade for future boost increases......

Air-air is for the only intercooling i want....
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      03-26-2012, 12:28 PM   #7
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I think one of the main benefits of the air-air intercooler is the long piping when it comes to cooling.

Although it poses a boost reducing architecture, it will have more time to cool the air in a more effective way, especially on the track when the CFM is pretty high at high speeds

On the other hand, the air-water cooler will cool better in low boost situations and street like performance but when the boost is higher, the heatsink inside the intake manifold will not be able to match the increasingly hot flow of air coming from the supercharger, however if you choose to "refrigerate" or "ice cool", you will have a more effective system on cooling.

So from my poor information in car FI systems and good engineering knowledge i would say:
ESS VT3 >>>> ESS VT2-500 > VF2-480 > ESS VT1-445

If you plan on staying sub 500hp, get VF, if you plan on crazy upgrades like beedub go ESS, until VF can provide an fmic system along their water-air schema.

then VF will have a supreme advantage in every aspect.
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      03-26-2012, 01:58 PM   #8
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I think the numbers are a bit optimistic.

(6 psi) / (14.7 psi) ~ 40.8% increase in power... or about 465 hp.

Conversely, ESS uses 5 psi and claims 445 hp for their stage 1 kit. The math says 442 hp, though some could be added for tuning and subtracted for the increase in heat vs the VF kit.

While the added cooling is of great benefit, I don't know that a little bit of cooling on 1 extra psi is worth $2100 and a more complex install. I'm still very interested though.
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      03-26-2012, 05:50 PM   #9
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If the kit runs off of engine coolant I would change it to be a stand alone circuit. Small radiator and a high volume fuel pump/eletric water pump would do that.

Looks like they are keeping the MAF in the tune so it will be more flexable than the ESS kit. I wonder if you data log how much they will work with you for a more custom map. Also, if they can remove the rear O2 sensors and possible the secondary air system that would be awesome.

It seems to be right inbetween ESS stage 1 and 2 so if you want more power than stage one ESS and want to keep some traction this may be the way to go. I would like to see the dyno map from this kit. Also, unlike ESS I bet you can just buy this kit with no "use our special shop" limitations. Since I have my own shop I can save thousands off install fee's...
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      03-26-2012, 07:41 PM   #10
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^it has begun!
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      03-26-2012, 11:23 PM   #11
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Looks like EAS is starting on the project on one of their own Z4M => http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=610251
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      03-27-2012, 12:12 AM   #12
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Is Villanova buying this too? heh
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      03-27-2012, 02:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
The liquid exchanger is at the front which cools the intake exchanger, its not the same as a fmic.... Its liquid to air as opposed to air - air.

Its not double cooling if you get me....
Well, it is double cooling. You the water - air cooler in the front bumper, AND an insert in the intake manifold.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=399010&page=2
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      03-27-2012, 03:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
The liquid exchanger is at the front which cools the intake exchanger, its not the same as a fmic.... Its liquid to air as opposed to air - air.

Its not double cooling if you get me....
Well, it is double cooling. You the water - air cooler in the front bumper, AND an insert in the intake manifold.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...010&page=2
You dont get it.... Its a front mounted water exhange... That Cooler water is then piped to the intake which runs through the intake to cool the charge, ther is no double cooling otherwise everyone would use this method.....

To be double cooling it would need another cooling rad mounted BEFORE the intake or for the boost charge to actually pass through another cooler.... So the charge would be cooled again. Its a good method, no wrong or right here... is the boost cooled twice?? no its cooled at the intake, the front water exchanger is basically an extention of the intake, i wont even look at the link youve posted, anybody that even has any idea what im were talking about will understand the concept...
the boost is being cooled once at the intake which cooled by the water passing through it, a air to air setup is cooled once at the intercooler as the air passes through it.... unless you telling me boost passes through that front water exchanger AND then then cooled intake??? yup..... exactly.....

to say its double cooling is completely incorrect, trust me if they were doing that they wouldnt be capping boost at 5.5-6psi ;-)

now a true dual cooling method??? air- air intercooling with meth/water injection sprayed AFTER the intercooler cools that charge again, giving AITs superchilled!!

I like the maf in place but after experiencing the alpha n software its as tractable as stock really... Its good enough for the csl so im more then happy with it in this application..

Either way id love someone to get this and grow the z4m fi community. VF have some great kits and this is no doubt another awesome option, i find my vt2 pathetic at getting traction to the point where its frustrating sometimes, in certain circumstances i believe my vt1 was quicker because i could lay that power ALL the time, vt2 has the traction light on constantly.... i cant wait to make a video to show you... just cant afford the go pro setup right now....
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Last edited by Beedub; 03-27-2012 at 04:36 AM.
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      03-27-2012, 05:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
You dont get it.... Its a front mounted water exhange... That Cooler water is then piped to the intake which runs through the intake to cool the charge, ther is no double cooling otherwise everyone would use this method.....

To be double cooling it would need another cooling rad mounted BEFORE the intake or for the boost charge to actually pass through another cooler.... So the charge would be cooled again. Its a good method, no wrong or right here... is the boost cooled twice?? no its cooled at the intake, the front water exchanger is basically an extention of the intake, i wont even look at the link youve posted, anybody that even has any idea what im were talking about will understand the concept...
the boost is being cooled once at the intake which cooled by the water passing through it, a air to air setup is cooled once at the intercooler as the air passes through it.... unless you telling me boost passes through that front water exchanger AND then then cooled intake??? yup..... exactly.....

to say its double cooling is completely incorrect, trust me if they were doing that they wouldnt be capping boost at 5.5-6psi ;-)

now a true dual cooling method??? air- air intercooling with meth/water injection sprayed AFTER the intercooler cools that charge again, giving AITs superchilled!!

I like the maf in place but after experiencing the alpha n software its as tractable as stock really... Its good enough for the csl so im more then happy with it in this application..

Either way id love someone to get this and grow the z4m fi community. VF have some great kits and this is no doubt another awesome option, i find my vt2 pathetic at getting traction to the point where its frustrating sometimes, in certain circumstances i believe my vt1 was quicker because i could lay that power ALL the time, vt2 has the traction light on constantly.... i cant wait to make a video to show you... just cant afford the go pro setup right now....
You didn't even check the link? Tom at EAS says this then:

"Two heat exchangers will be present, like the E46 S54 kits. The manifold will offer a cartridge-type heat exchanger, with a additional unit behind the bumper cover"

I'm just merely stating what they said. I wasn't aware of any other type of system that has two, separate additions to either drop the IAT or maintain the IATs....which is why I asked in that thread why I should pay $2100 extra for the VF kit compared to ESS.....
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      03-27-2012, 07:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
You dont get it.... Its a front mounted water exhange... That Cooler water is then piped to the intake which runs through the intake to cool the charge, ther is no double cooling otherwise everyone would use this method.....

To be double cooling it would need another cooling rad mounted BEFORE the intake or for the boost charge to actually pass through another cooler.... So the charge would be cooled again. Its a good method, no wrong or right here... is the boost cooled twice?? no its cooled at the intake, the front water exchanger is basically an extention of the intake, i wont even look at the link youve posted, anybody that even has any idea what im were talking about will understand the concept...
the boost is being cooled once at the intake which cooled by the water passing through it, a air to air setup is cooled once at the intercooler as the air passes through it.... unless you telling me boost passes through that front water exchanger AND then then cooled intake??? yup..... exactly.....

to say its double cooling is completely incorrect, trust me if they were doing that they wouldnt be capping boost at 5.5-6psi ;-)

now a true dual cooling method??? air- air intercooling with meth/water injection sprayed AFTER the intercooler cools that charge again, giving AITs superchilled!!

I like the maf in place but after experiencing the alpha n software its as tractable as stock really... Its good enough for the csl so im more then happy with it in this application..

Either way id love someone to get this and grow the z4m fi community. VF have some great kits and this is no doubt another awesome option, i find my vt2 pathetic at getting traction to the point where its frustrating sometimes, in certain circumstances i believe my vt1 was quicker because i could lay that power ALL the time, vt2 has the traction light on constantly.... i cant wait to make a video to show you... just cant afford the go pro setup right now....
You didn't even check the link? Tom at EAS says this then:

"Two heat exchangers will be present, like the E46 S54 kits. The manifold will offer a cartridge-type heat exchanger, with a additional unit behind the bumper cover"

I'm just merely stating what they said. I wasn't aware of any other type of system that has two, separate additions to either drop the IAT or maintain the IATs....which is why I asked in that thread why I should pay $2100 extra for the VF kit compared to ESS.....
Ok :-) well agree to disagree :-) boost is cooled in one location ;-) at the intake.... The front unit is a radiator FOR the heat exchanger that cools boost.... for example, remove the front rad for the intake mani and the intake cooling is Nill.... direct tom to this thread and ask him if anything ive said is incorrect..
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Last edited by Beedub; 03-27-2012 at 07:22 AM.
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      03-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #17
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either way this is another great option imo... BUT... for me if im going with a water cooled setup it would be the g-power setup with the Tq rich asa blower.......
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Last edited by Beedub; 03-27-2012 at 07:30 AM.
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      03-27-2012, 08:10 AM   #18
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Anyone knows if the VF supercharger have the same ECU flashing software like ESS?

it will be a shame if we have to ship out our ECUs. this is a deal breaker for me. definitely.
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      03-27-2012, 08:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Anyone knows if the VF supercharger have the same ECU flashing software like ESS?

it will be a shame if we have to ship out our ECUs. this is a deal breaker for me. definitely.
im guessing this can be flashed just like ess.....

ess ship with proper pc package now so you can map switch n all sorts, great feature..... their are features about all the kits i love, and features i dont like so much..... with ess they have this gigantic blower that doesnt really come in to its own until you get to the stag2 packages......

the g-power has no room for more power

Vf uses an intake that has a larger pressure drop due to the nature of its design....

ess boost pipework is a bastard to get right and the fmic is MASSIVE and needs trimming of the pastic undertray to fit in correctly, not a massive issue but to do it properly it takes time...

Ess install is a pain in the ass due to said boost pipes ect ect probably the worst out of all of them.... ESS will not sell vt2 kits to anyone and have to go through a proper ess dealer or them.
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      03-27-2012, 09:01 AM   #20
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The main reason I do not like ESS stage one is it is does not have a cooler on it. The main reason this kit is $2,150 more is that it incorporates an air cooler in the form of air to water intercooler. I like that they are adding a front mount radiator/cooler just for the air/water cooler circuit, G-Power used engine coolant in thier kit (I think).

This kit will "come on" with better low end being air/water over air/air as it has less piping to charge. Running a stand alone cooling circuit for it will keep those air temps nice and managable and you can always co2 spray that radiator for a little extra. Something like a NOS pedal system that sprays/fogger the radiator under WOT only.

Would be a nice inbetween for someone that does not track their car alot and wants to retain a hope of traction =-)

Here is a better way to describe the "two heat exchangers". The air/water system has two water type radiators (aka heat exchangers) one located behind the front bumper, the other located inside the intake manifold. It has a self contained water/cooling circuit that moves water from one radiator to the other (absorbs/convects heat out of the intake air charge, dispells it with the front radiator, repeat). The air charge only runs from the output of the super charger directly into the intake manifold.


Here is a good link on air/air vs air/water...

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...tercooler.html

Even though this kit heat soaks with extended track use it would be better to have some form of cooling over none at all (ESS S1).
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      03-27-2012, 09:14 AM   #21
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Why do you think the VF intake design has boost drops?

The only thing i felt wrong about the design is that maybe the repartition of boost is not equal on the cylinders.
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      03-27-2012, 11:10 AM   #22
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Hard to judge this kit until someone puts some hard miles on it. Im no intercooler expert : )
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