2003 Z4 Power Top Issues

Dave 19103 · 03-19-2012, 11:03 PM

Figured I might as well start a new thread here instead of clogging up the "DIY" ones for removing the soft top or the motor. Sorry for the length, but trying to be as detailed as possible to not only help people provide a useful response but also for when the next person who has this issue comes across this posting.

Original Issue: Power top motor does not lower or raise the soft top.

1. When fully up and latched, holding the open button would drop windows part way down (if up) and unlatch the top's locks but then nothing. Pushing top down manually was done (no resistance) to get it open / down and in locking position. Holding the open button again would lock it down. Red lights go out.

2. When fully down and locked, holding close button would unlock it but would not move. Pushed the black manual release button and then raise is manually (again, no resistance) to up and closed position. Holding close button again would latch it. Red lights go out.

Suspecting bad motor due to water damage (most common cause), with other functions appearing normal and knowing the trunk shelf floor switch was ok, decided to tackle the R&R motor task. Using Shipkiller's DIY, went like clock work and had it out in under 2 hours.

However, motor and it's case was not in condition I thought it would be in. Bone dry, no signs of corrosion anywhere. The only thing I noticed was that the reservoir looked empty (but was in fact really low). Opted to replace motor.

BTW, the "new" motor does in fact come with pre-stamped numbers for the hydraulic lines but I opted to do a position match swap to keep things in sync. And to my surprise the new motor's pre-drilled holes for mounting the "Bowden cable" bracket were too damn small for the old screws to go in. WTF? Had to find other screws to work (but broke one in process however I got that bracket secured!)

Post motor swap, top installed (not fully, just bolted in), after reconnecting battery tried it again and..... FAIL. Same situation, only "worse".

Current Issue

1. When fully down and unlocked, holding close button does nothing. No need to push the black manual release button because it's not locked. I can raise it manually (without resistance) to up and closed position. Holding close button again would latch it. Red lights go out.

2. When fully up and latched, holding the open button does not drop windows part way down any more (FIXED), the locks unlatch and then nothing. Pushing top down manually I get to about 3/4 then hit resistance. I now need to pull infamous red handle in the trunk that moves a whole 15 feet (give or take 14 feet, 11 and 7/8 inches). Top now goes all the way down. However, holding the open button again does not lock it down any more, AND the red lights do not go out.

At this point, this appears to introduce another potential cause for these tops to fail as first described, where the motor is not the problem. I'm stuck right now with what to try or troubleshoot next. I'm thinking I have to pull it out again to check the "Hall Effect" switches, whatever those are (I thought Hall Effect was a setting on my home stereo), or "bleed" the closed system somehow, or ???

{edit} CAUSE: system was low on fluid due to leak as described below.

Dave

btw - old motor is fine - will put it up for sale.

DreamTheater · 03-20-2012, 03:54 AM

Quote:

No need to push the black manual release button because it's not locked.

To me that might indicate the hydraulic release may be open? The red tab in the boot - have you pulled that out?

The other thing I can think of is the switch in the boot if that's broken it might be causing the issue however the button should light up orange when you try to open/close it from memory.

Sorry to hear the roof is giving you problems, I had issues with mine but got it sorted fairly easily - they're a pain in the ass!

Good luck!

Dave 19103 · 03-20-2012, 10:19 PM

It appears to be all about the fluid.

Update: Tonight after work I messed with it some more, cycling switch up / down, manually pushing open / close, numerous times trying to see if it would "engage". And at one point I actually heard the sound of air passing through liquid like the hydraulic fluid was making its way past air in the system. But still, no movement.

I then notice signs of fluid on the floor in front of the right rear tire (clean drains helped point that out). Sure enough, hydraulic fluid. So, the new motor, with a fresh fill of fluid, was able to push it through the system and then it leaks out! That brings me back to the concern with the original motor having so little fluid in it. A closed system could not just have the fluid evaporate, so it had to leak out, right? I now have a general idea from where. And I'm now pretty certain the original motor is fine.

Next step is need to figure that part out; which of the two lines on the right hinge actuator, or the actuator itself (don't think that's even replaceable?). No way to tell off the bat because the whole thing was wet, but Q: how loose are those lines suppose to be anyway? Seems like the driver's side are pretty much the same with no leak.

{edit} Answer is they're ok to move a little (swivel) as that's by design. As noted below, mine are fine, it's the RH actuator that's leaking.

Of course, I need to top off the reservoir first to do replace. To get to all this, the top has to come back out.

Which, after getting it back out allowed me to look for and inspect those Hall Effect senors. Come to find they're both still there but one of them is "broken" off of it's screw mounting point, so I'll need to glue it back down for it to stay.

Was wondering if powering the motor's electrical points will in fact open / close the top while it's on the floor. Seems like it would, according to this chap's experience in replacing these same lines (last post on page 3). Interesting approach on "bleeding it" too. May have to try that.

BTW, the window drop thing was "fixed" by removing and reinstalling Fuse 31 (found that out by chance).

{edit} Ok, figured out the "bowden line" (pull handle below the trunk shelf floor switch) is to emergency release the top's down lock/latch but not sure that device has properly reset itself so i'll deal with that later. Pic for ref:

So that's where things stand, sit, whatever. Get fluid, run the motor/pump, identify leak, replace lines (or skip the first part and just replace them), get it to work on the floor, re-install, and hope for the best. If not fixed, then she's becoming a damn manual soft top car and I'm done!

Dave 19103 · 03-27-2012, 08:50 PM

Here's latest update:

Got the fluid, topped off motor/pump, cycled power to it off and on, reversing a couple of times, got it to push fluid into the system, confirmed location of leak. It's not the lines as suspected, it's the RH actuator. Must've blown a seal and leaks this stuff right out from it's housing.

Since it's a replaceable part, I'll give it a shot (thankfully with a little help from THIS).

Also, depending on turn around time, may consider a rebuild pair from these guys. Two for the price of one. Anybody have any experience with them?

trackhobo · 03-30-2012, 08:12 PM

Did you say the red handle pulls out for 15 feet?! Mine only goes out about an inch. I don't like sounding like an idiot, but I'm an idiot. And I'm serious...

Dave 19103 · 04-03-2012, 07:01 PM

Read the fine print; I tend to be a little sarcastic when dealing with BS like this.

"I now need to pull infamous red handle in the trunk that moves a whole 15 feet (give or take 14 feet, 11 and 7/8 inches)."

So in essence, if your handle moves an actual "inch" that's more than what mine does (somehow that doesn't come out right LOL). And you can have your "idiot" card back; save it for a rainy day. No such thing as a dumb question.

------------------------------

{edit} Final Update: took about a week to get the actuator in, tackled install that same weekday evening and it checked good, using both the old motor and the new one (had plenty of fluid to top off both). Decided to stick with new motor to "refresh" things.

As for that hall sensor, this little thing will ruin your day if not where it should be! (this is the "down" position sensor, not really viewable with the top fully installed; the "up" position sensor is sitting on top).

So now that it's back together, everything works like champ!

Oh, you can bet had my fair share of issues getting it back in and secured and finally working right, but I got it. Only thing left is to do a little adjustment on the down lock / latch since it's "catching" right after it's unlocked and the top starts to go up.

So that's it. For those troubleshooting power top issues like mine, where it appears the motor "sounds" good but is not working, it probably still is and if you can confirm that it's not corroded out like is usually the case, next best thing is to check fluid level. If it appears low, fill it back up and cycle it several times to try to get the top to move. Out of the car, I just alternated applying the 12v + and - leads on the motor. If you have a leak, you'll find it.

Again, many thanks to shipbuilder on the removal write-ups and to others who post advice on fixing this sort of stuff.

bassrebel · 04-22-2012, 10:28 AM

Fwiw.... I'm experiencing issues with my soft top as well (crazy, right?)

I can hear the motor "whirring" but the soft top does not move... Just unlocks and locks...

I notice in ur last post you mention that the motor "sounds" good... How would you describe a good sound from a bad one?

Dave 19103 · 05-06-2012, 11:09 AM

Hmmm, I guess I would describe a "good" sounding motor as one that still "whirs" strong and steady instead of like it's struggling, going in and out when you try to use it, but still nothing moves.

From what I could tell, these motors/pumps are very well built and unless they're corroded to hell (i.e., from water collecting and shorting it out), if they're doing "something" when power is applied (making a "normal" sound as before when working well) they still work and it could very well be something else in the system as I discovered - a leak resulting in being too low on fluid for it to work. Once I filled it back up and cycled it a few times, it was able to pressurize the lines enough to move things and hence, the leaking actuator (bracket) was discovered. My guess is it leaked slowly enough before for the PO to notice it and then the top just "stopped working" one day. When I got it (X number of months/years after that point), there was no evidence of a leak until I tore into it.

Your locking/unlocking still works because the components that indicate the position your top is in is telling those locking actuators to function accordingly (what switch you press). The motor runs in sync at each point, hence the continued "sound" after the latches unlock. As already noted in other threads, only way to tell is to get that thing out of there and inspect it.

03-19-2012, 11:03 PM	#1
Dave 19103 Private Drives: 2003 BMW Z4 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: GSO, NC Posts: 80 iTrader: (1)	2003 Z4 Power Top Issues Figured I might as well start a new thread here instead of clogging up the "DIY" ones for removing the soft top or the motor. Sorry for the length, but trying to be as detailed as possible to not only help people provide a useful response but also for when the next person who has this issue comes across this posting. Original Issue: Power top motor does not lower or raise the soft top. 1. When fully up and latched, holding the open button would drop windows part way down (if up) and unlatch the top's locks but then nothing. Pushing top down manually was done (no resistance) to get it open / down and in locking position. Holding the open button again would lock it down. Red lights go out. 2. When fully down and locked, holding close button would unlock it but would not move. Pushed the black manual release button and then raise is manually (again, no resistance) to up and closed position. Holding close button again would latch it. Red lights go out. Suspecting bad motor due to water damage (most common cause), with other functions appearing normal and knowing the trunk shelf floor switch was ok, decided to tackle the R&R motor task. Using Shipkiller's DIY, went like clock work and had it out in under 2 hours. However, motor and it's case was not in condition I thought it would be in. Bone dry, no signs of corrosion anywhere. The only thing I noticed was that the reservoir looked empty (but was in fact really low). Opted to replace motor. BTW, the "new" motor does in fact come with pre-stamped numbers for the hydraulic lines but I opted to do a position match swap to keep things in sync. And to my surprise the new motor's pre-drilled holes for mounting the "Bowden cable" bracket were too damn small for the old screws to go in. WTF? Had to find other screws to work (but broke one in process however I got that bracket secured!) Post motor swap, top installed (not fully, just bolted in), after reconnecting battery tried it again and..... FAIL. Same situation, only "worse". Current Issue 1. When fully down and unlocked, holding close button does nothing. No need to push the black manual release button because it's not locked. I can raise it manually (without resistance) to up and closed position. Holding close button again would latch it. Red lights go out. 2. When fully up and latched, holding the open button does not drop windows part way down any more (FIXED), the locks unlatch and then nothing. Pushing top down manually I get to about 3/4 then hit resistance. I now need to pull infamous red handle in the trunk that moves a whole 15 feet (give or take 14 feet, 11 and 7/8 inches). Top now goes all the way down. However, holding the open button again does not lock it down any more, AND the red lights do not go out. At this point, this appears to introduce another potential cause for these tops to fail as first described, where the motor is not the problem. I'm stuck right now with what to try or troubleshoot next. I'm thinking I have to pull it out again to check the "Hall Effect" switches, whatever those are (I thought Hall Effect was a setting on my home stereo), or "bleed" the closed system somehow, or ??? {edit} CAUSE: system was low on fluid due to leak as described below. Dave btw - old motor is fine - will put it up for sale. Last edited by Dave 19103; 04-08-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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03-20-2012, 10:19 PM	#3
Dave 19103 Private Drives: 2003 BMW Z4 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: GSO, NC Posts: 80 iTrader: (1)	It appears to be all about the fluid. Update: Tonight after work I messed with it some more, cycling switch up / down, manually pushing open / close, numerous times trying to see if it would "engage". And at one point I actually heard the sound of air passing through liquid like the hydraulic fluid was making its way past air in the system. But still, no movement. I then notice signs of fluid on the floor in front of the right rear tire (clean drains helped point that out). Sure enough, hydraulic fluid. So, the new motor, with a fresh fill of fluid, was able to push it through the system and then it leaks out! That brings me back to the concern with the original motor having so little fluid in it. A closed system could not just have the fluid evaporate, so it had to leak out, right? I now have a general idea from where. And I'm now pretty certain the original motor is fine. Next step is need to figure that part out; which of the two lines on the right hinge actuator, or the actuator itself (don't think that's even replaceable?). No way to tell off the bat because the whole thing was wet, but Q: how loose are those lines suppose to be anyway? Seems like the driver's side are pretty much the same with no leak. {edit} Answer is they're ok to move a little (swivel) as that's by design. As noted below, mine are fine, it's the RH actuator that's leaking. Of course, I need to top off the reservoir first to do replace. To get to all this, the top has to come back out. Which, after getting it back out allowed me to look for and inspect those Hall Effect senors. Come to find they're both still there but one of them is "broken" off of it's screw mounting point, so I'll need to glue it back down for it to stay. Was wondering if powering the motor's electrical points will in fact open / close the top while it's on the floor. Seems like it would, according to this chap's experience in replacing these same lines (last post on page 3). Interesting approach on "bleeding it" too. May have to try that. BTW, the window drop thing was "fixed" by removing and reinstalling Fuse 31 (found that out by chance). {edit} Ok, figured out the "bowden line" (pull handle below the trunk shelf floor switch) is to emergency release the top's down lock/latch but not sure that device has properly reset itself so i'll deal with that later. Pic for ref: So that's where things stand, sit, whatever. Get fluid, run the motor/pump, identify leak, replace lines (or skip the first part and just replace them), get it to work on the floor, re-install, and hope for the best. If not fixed, then she's becoming a damn manual soft top car and I'm done! Last edited by Dave 19103; 03-27-2012 at 09:21 PM.

04-03-2012, 07:01 PM	#6
Dave 19103 Private Drives: 2003 BMW Z4 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: GSO, NC Posts: 80 iTrader: (1)	Read the fine print; I tend to be a little sarcastic when dealing with BS like this. "I now need to pull infamous red handle in the trunk that moves a whole 15 feet (give or take 14 feet, 11 and 7/8 inches)." So in essence, if your handle moves an actual "inch" that's more than what mine does (somehow that doesn't come out right LOL). And you can have your "idiot" card back; save it for a rainy day. No such thing as a dumb question. ------------------------------ {edit} Final Update: took about a week to get the actuator in, tackled install that same weekday evening and it checked good, using both the old motor and the new one (had plenty of fluid to top off both). Decided to stick with new motor to "refresh" things. As for that hall sensor, this little thing will ruin your day if not where it should be! (this is the "down" position sensor, not really viewable with the top fully installed; the "up" position sensor is sitting on top). So now that it's back together, everything works like champ! Oh, you can bet had my fair share of issues getting it back in and secured and finally working right, but I got it. Only thing left is to do a little adjustment on the down lock / latch since it's "catching" right after it's unlocked and the top starts to go up. So that's it. For those troubleshooting power top issues like mine, where it appears the motor "sounds" good but is not working, it probably still is and if you can confirm that it's not corroded out like is usually the case, next best thing is to check fluid level. If it appears low, fill it back up and cycle it several times to try to get the top to move. Out of the car, I just alternated applying the 12v + and - leads on the motor. If you have a leak, you'll find it. Again, many thanks to shipbuilder on the removal write-ups and to others who post advice on fixing this sort of stuff. Last edited by Dave 19103; 04-09-2012 at 09:07 PM.

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03-27-2012, 08:50 PM	#4
Dave 19103 Private Drives: 2003 BMW Z4 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: GSO, NC Posts: 80 iTrader: (1)	Here's latest update: Got the fluid, topped off motor/pump, cycled power to it off and on, reversing a couple of times, got it to push fluid into the system, confirmed location of leak. It's not the lines as suspected, it's the RH actuator. Must've blown a seal and leaks this stuff right out from it's housing. Since it's a replaceable part, I'll give it a shot (thankfully with a little help from THIS). Also, depending on turn around time, may consider a rebuild pair from these guys. Two for the price of one. Anybody have any experience with them?

03-30-2012, 08:12 PM	#5
trackhobo BMdub Lover Drives: 2008 BMW 135i Coupe Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fort Sill, OK Posts: 12 iTrader: (0)	Did you say the red handle pulls out for 15 feet?! Mine only goes out about an inch. I don't like sounding like an idiot, but I'm an idiot. And I'm serious...

04-22-2012, 10:28 AM	#7
bassrebel The Lazy one... Drives: Z4 3.0i & E90 330i Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 81 iTrader: (2)	Fwiw.... I'm experiencing issues with my soft top as well (crazy, right?) I can hear the motor "whirring" but the soft top does not move... Just unlocks and locks... I notice in ur last post you mention that the motor "sounds" good... How would you describe a good sound from a bad one?

05-06-2012, 11:09 AM	#8
Dave 19103 Private Drives: 2003 BMW Z4 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: GSO, NC Posts: 80 iTrader: (1)	Hmmm, I guess I would describe a "good" sounding motor as one that still "whirs" strong and steady instead of like it's struggling, going in and out when you try to use it, but still nothing moves. From what I could tell, these motors/pumps are very well built and unless they're corroded to hell (i.e., from water collecting and shorting it out), if they're doing "something" when power is applied (making a "normal" sound as before when working well) they still work and it could very well be something else in the system as I discovered - a leak resulting in being too low on fluid for it to work. Once I filled it back up and cycled it a few times, it was able to pressurize the lines enough to move things and hence, the leaking actuator (bracket) was discovered. My guess is it leaked slowly enough before for the PO to notice it and then the top just "stopped working" one day. When I got it (X number of months/years after that point), there was no evidence of a leak until I tore into it. Your locking/unlocking still works because the components that indicate the position your top is in is telling those locking actuators to function accordingly (what switch you press). The motor runs in sync at each point, hence the continued "sound" after the latches unlock. As already noted in other threads, only way to tell is to get that thing out of there and inspect it.