Advice Needed: Cracked Block and Piston Head

Vanne · 07-30-2016, 12:57 AM

Me 2

Arsonism · 07-30-2016, 10:35 AM

It looks like the machine shop has finally gotten around to the project, I'm not sure what has taken this long but things are moving again.

The reviewed the block that I purchased and said that it wasn't "linear" as it should be, or something along those lines. They didn't rule it out for use yet, but the machinist wanted to order a set of pistons to throw into there to measure the variances throughout the block. He is going to do this with a set of Stock 0 pistons and will also compare those variances to the other block that came off of the donor car.

As of right now this is all hearsay, I haven't seen anything in writing and I don't know when I will. The pistons are supposed to come in sometime towards the end of this week or the following week. I will be back on military orders at the time, but I'll be doing my best to follow up on it. I haven't agreed to use the old block and I most certainly want to see everything written up before I move forward on anything, but they are selling/pushing/encouraging me to move towards the used block from the donor car.

dc_wright · 07-30-2016, 11:30 AM

Interesting! I'm a bit baffled as to why they'd need a set of pistons to measure anything to do with the engine block though for a stock rebuild. Typically you only need the piston set if you're going to match machine the cylinders to the pistons.
The only other reason I can think of is that both blocks are at/near the limit for stock bore pistons and they're trying to avoid boring to the first oversize so they're going to measure the pistons and rely on that tolerance to just meet the limit. If this is the direction they're going, I'd be concerned since you'll get a "rebuilt" engine with it's starting point at the limit of wear....

bignosejim · 07-31-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsonism

The reviewed the block that I purchased and said that it wasn't "linear" as it should be, or something along those lines.

I would consider trying to return the new block to BMW under warranty and getting money back. Then you could use that to make sure the donor block is properly line honed and all other measurements are in spec. Maybe even consider getting a long block from a trusted rebuilder (Lang racing comes to mind). That way these guys can install a completed motor in your car and you can be done with it.

Arsonism · 08-01-2016, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bignosejim

I would consider trying to return the new block to BMW under warranty and getting money back. Then you could use that to make sure the donor block is properly line honed and all other measurements are in spec. Maybe even consider getting a long block from a trusted rebuilder (Lang racing comes to mind). That way these guys can install a completed motor in your car and you can be done with it.

I really want to use Lang if at all possible in future endeavors of this scale. I even reached out to him before and I wish I had him at least pass everything over at some point. If that's the route that we go then I'll see what the shop thinks.

I haven't heard anything since the last bit of information, but it hit me that today marks the one year anniversary of this whole ordeal. Just crazy.

Arsonism · 08-27-2016, 01:02 PM

Almost another month and and suppose it's time for another update.

I just returned from two months of work and haven't had a whole lot of contact with the outside world. I figured I'd give them a call on my drive back home to try to see how the rebuild version 2.0 was going. As I got a hold of them, the they informed me that the block had been complete (with pistons and spacing) and that they were still waiting on the head. Unfortunately at this time I don't know which block/head/etc is being used because I was in a bad service area and it was towards the end of business, so I'll have to wait until Monday for a full update; I'll post that up here when I get a chance.

1 year + 1 month, closing in on the date it got there, October will have been a year for the shop to have the car in their possession.

Beedub · 08-27-2016, 03:11 PM

this is insane for any business to have a customers item in their possession for this long.... shocked they can run a business with leads times like this, really bad stuff, this should have been a priority to be coming in 6 weeks MAX from the failure.

NickyC · 08-27-2016, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beedub

this is insane for any business to have a customers item in their possession for this long.... shocked they can run a business with leads times like this, really bad stuff, this should have been a priority to be coming in 6 weeks MAX from the failure.

^ Total and complete joke.

Arsonism · 08-30-2016, 05:15 PM

Alright, pretty decent update so we'll dive right into it.

Shop told me that the block that we had gone with had been too scraped up in the 3rd cylinder to provide an even set of tolerances across the whole block. The donor block (*58,xxx miles) was measured in addition to it and came back with some measurements. They have all brand new internals (aside from rods which came from the donor) to throw into it as well. I will go nab some photos of it in the near future as well. The head from my motor was pretty worn down apparently from being reworked after the first incident, so they're currently working on the used head from the other motor (which isn't a huge deal, considering the mileage is approximately the same as what my motor had been).

wdb · 08-31-2016, 04:26 PM

Still here, still following, still hoping for a good outcome.

Arsonism · 09-01-2016, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

6 months????

This is going to be like getting a new car when you finally get her back.

Was going through all the old posts here and saw this... I laughed a bit.

I went by to look at the parts that they had gathered but the shop owner had a family emergency and I didn't press poking around the shop. They're normally pretty inviting, but no need to push my luck. Going to Dallas for a bit after today so when I get back I'll have some new photos before I start up work again hopefully.

Stay tuned everyone. Maybe early October at this rate is my guess.

inTgr8r · 09-01-2016, 08:31 PM

Best of luck with this Shane

Huz-Z · 09-02-2016, 01:07 PM

OMFG I would be terribly frustrated after so long.

Dunno if this is practical or not, but isn't there a guy in the Classifieds section parting out a Z4M roadie? Could that motor be sourced to replace yours?

Arsonism · 09-02-2016, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

OMFG I would be terribly frustrated after so long.

Dunno if this is practical or not, but isn't there a guy in the Classifieds section parting out a Z4M roadie? Could that motor be sourced to replace yours?

There have been a couple threads like that since this whole endeavor was started. In hindsight I'm sure there would be a hundred actions I would change, but currently they are working with some donor parts to make up for the damage and the parts that weren't inspected prior to installation. It seems fair, and the measurements came back very good so I'm hopeful that everything will turn out alright, it's just a waiting game at this point in time.

I appreciate you keeping your eyes out! I hope not to be one of those threads in the near, or distant (heh), future.

LangRacingDevelopment · 09-05-2016, 05:23 PM

It would have been pretty unusual to be able to have a good enough block to use the stock bore, that's pretty uncommon. I've tried it before and ended up with high oil consumption and had to tear down the thing and bore/hone to the next size up.

I've got a big custom order in with Mahle to make a run of 87.25 and 87.5mm 11.5CR pistons for all the stock rebuilds going on. I for one am getting tired of only having 1 rebuild on every block. Blocks are getting way to hard to find these days.

Arsonism · 09-08-2016, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment

It would have been pretty unusual to be able to have a good enough block to use the stock bore, that's pretty uncommon. I've tried it before and ended up with high oil consumption and had to tear down the thing and bore/hone to the next size up.

I've got a big custom order in with Mahle to make a run of 87.25 and 87.5mm 11.5CR pistons for all the stock rebuilds going on. I for one am getting tired of only having 1 rebuild on every block. Blocks are getting way to hard to find these days.

I don't know if this block had previously been rebuilt, and I honestly do not know the entire history of the donor vehicle. Which has always been a point of concern for me.

Has there been anything that can prevent the extra oil consumption outside of honing to the next size? Should I recommend to the shop to use a set of larger pistons? Would it be reasonable to go through the original block that I had purchased from BMW even though it went through nearly the same failure that the original block had? (Just probing for constructive criticism).

LangRacingDevelopment · 09-08-2016, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsonism

I don't know if this block had previously been rebuilt, and I honestly do not know the entire history of the donor vehicle. Which has always been a point of concern for me.

Has there been anything that can prevent the extra oil consumption outside of honing to the next size? Should I recommend to the shop to use a set of larger pistons? Would it be reasonable to go through the original block that I had purchased from BMW even though it went through nearly the same failure that the original block had? (Just probing for constructive criticism).

Your machine shop should be able to guide you on these choices.

Arsonism · 09-08-2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment

Your machine shop should be able to guide you on these choices.

If the shop does not want to share that information what would be the best way of requesting a discussion with the machine shop for that information? (Just trying to remain civil where I've been told not to reach out to him in the past.)

LangRacingDevelopment · 09-08-2016, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsonism

If the shop does not want to share that information what would be the best way of requesting a discussion with the machine shop for that information? (Just trying to remain civil where I've been told not to reach out to him in the past.)

I meant the machine shop who you are paying to hone your block. You are paying them right so why wouldn't they tell you whether or not the bore is clean or straight enough to install 87.0mm pistons or if you need to go to the next size up.

Arsonism · 09-09-2016, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment

I meant the machine shop who you are paying to hone your block. You are paying them right so why wouldn't they tell you whether or not the bore is clean or straight enough to install 87.0mm pistons or if you need to go to the next size up.

Machine shop is being handled by the shop, that's how they set up after the incident as they placed the bad crank into the newly purchased block from BMW. That's why we are on this donor block currently. I haven't reached out to nor have I been able to reach out to the machine shop since the incident in February. I've been trying to see what I can do from my position but I really try not to be too pushy and sit back for a lot of this, partly because of my knowledge and also because I don't want to impede the already very slow process.

Vanne · 09-09-2016, 12:35 AM

Glad Lang dropped into this discussion, competent advise is always welcome. Thanks.
Shane, man still standing by, amazed at the lenght, pitfalls and heartache you've gone through mate.

LangRacingDevelopment · 09-09-2016, 02:56 PM

I decided I would skim through the entire thread and I think I now understand what happened a little better so maybe I can make comments that are more useful this time around.

Your new block, I imagine, now won't carry that wonderful and expensive 2 year warranty from BMW so I would expect, since the shop made some mistakes leading to its damage, that they should offer you a complete 2 year warranty on this new rebuilt engine similar to what you would have gotten for the block you paid big money for.

So your brand new block now is so damaged it cannot be used?

If you are using a 60k mile block now it should not be used with the brand new pistons you received with your other block, a hone on a 60k mile block is not the same as a bore and hone to the next oversize. I wouldn't let them do this, they are just trying to avoid buying another set of pistons.

You paid alot to have 87mm BMW Mahle pistons in a BMW bored and honed block and now you aren't getting that, I'd be pretty upset about that. But, you're being nice and not forcing them to buy you a new BMW block. If it were me I would probably consider using an aftermarket piston at 87.5mm and boring and honing either your new BMW block or this used one they are providing to 87.5mm so you have a guaranteed straight and clean cylinder.

Maybe I missed the reason why they needed to get a whole new donor engine rather than try to rebuild the same engine a 2nd time.

You asked them for a data sheet from the machine shop and I can understand them not having that, my machine shop doesn't usually give me any numbers, just a pass or fail. That being said, it's the engine assemblers job to double check everything the machine shop does. That means checking main bearing and rod bearing clearances. It sounds like if they had done this they would have seen that they had a journal that was damaged (if that was the case). I suppose they could have also had a bent crankshaft, but they should have noticed that during assembly, the crank doesn't spin well if its bent. On I-6 engines we always have these cranks straightened, they usually have slight bend to them.

If the rod was bent that would make sense considering you probably had lots of water in that first engine with the cracked cylinder wall and that will usually bend a rod, but that is once again something the machine shop should have been able to see pretty easily.

Sounds to me like it just wasn't a thorough enough job at bottom end assembly.

What would be more of a shame is spending 16k to end up with an engine you could have bought for much less than that.

I'm sure I missed some things so correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps have them test drive the car for a day or two before picking it up next time, that is usually enough time for assembly mistakes to show up. Glad to see they are standing behind their work and getting you another engine.

07-30-2016, 12:57 AM	#221
Vanne Down Under!! 1621 Rep 4,294 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Dubai iTrader: (4)	Me 2 __________________ 2007 EuroSpec Z4///MC - Building/Developing Z4 GT3 Powered by
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07-30-2016, 10:35 AM	#222
Arsonism Captain 158 Rep 747 Posts Drives: '08 M Coupe Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Austin, TX iTrader: (3)	It looks like the machine shop has finally gotten around to the project, I'm not sure what has taken this long but things are moving again. The reviewed the block that I purchased and said that it wasn't "linear" as it should be, or something along those lines. They didn't rule it out for use yet, but the machinist wanted to order a set of pistons to throw into there to measure the variances throughout the block. He is going to do this with a set of Stock 0 pistons and will also compare those variances to the other block that came off of the donor car. As of right now this is all hearsay, I haven't seen anything in writing and I don't know when I will. The pistons are supposed to come in sometime towards the end of this week or the following week. I will be back on military orders at the time, but I'll be doing my best to follow up on it. I haven't agreed to use the old block and I most certainly want to see everything written up before I move forward on anything, but they are selling/pushing/encouraging me to move towards the used block from the donor car. __________________ ◙ Shane
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07-30-2016, 11:30 AM	#223
dc_wright Captain 249 Rep 758 Posts Drives: 2006 Z43.0si Roadster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Orlando, FL iTrader: (0)	Interesting! I'm a bit baffled as to why they'd need a set of pistons to measure anything to do with the engine block though for a stock rebuild. Typically you only need the piston set if you're going to match machine the cylinders to the pistons. The only other reason I can think of is that both blocks are at/near the limit for stock bore pistons and they're trying to avoid boring to the first oversize so they're going to measure the pistons and rely on that tolerance to just meet the limit. If this is the direction they're going, I'd be concerned since you'll get a "rebuilt" engine with it's starting point at the limit of wear.... __________________ Top Down 365
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08-27-2016, 01:02 PM	#226
Arsonism Captain 158 Rep 747 Posts Drives: '08 M Coupe Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Austin, TX iTrader: (3)	Almost another month and and suppose it's time for another update. I just returned from two months of work and haven't had a whole lot of contact with the outside world. I figured I'd give them a call on my drive back home to try to see how the rebuild version 2.0 was going. As I got a hold of them, the they informed me that the block had been complete (with pistons and spacing) and that they were still waiting on the head. Unfortunately at this time I don't know which block/head/etc is being used because I was in a bad service area and it was towards the end of business, so I'll have to wait until Monday for a full update; I'll post that up here when I get a chance. 1 year + 1 month, closing in on the date it got there, October will have been a year for the shop to have the car in their possession. __________________ ◙ Shane
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08-27-2016, 03:11 PM	#227
Beedub Major General 423 Rep 5,327 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	this is insane for any business to have a customers item in their possession for this long.... shocked they can run a business with leads times like this, really bad stuff, this should have been a priority to be coming in 6 weeks MAX from the failure. __________________ Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build. Multi award winning Detailing \| Wrap \| PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
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08-30-2016, 05:15 PM	#229
Arsonism Captain 158 Rep 747 Posts Drives: '08 M Coupe Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Austin, TX iTrader: (3)	Alright, pretty decent update so we'll dive right into it. Shop told me that the block that we had gone with had been too scraped up in the 3rd cylinder to provide an even set of tolerances across the whole block. The donor block (58,xxx miles) was measured in addition to it and came back with some measurements. They have all brand new internals (aside from rods which came from the donor) to throw into it as well. I will go nab some photos of it in the near future as well. The head from my motor was pretty worn down apparently from being reworked after the first incident, so they're currently working on the used head from the other motor (which isn't a huge deal, considering the mileage is approximately the same as what my motor had been). __________________ ◙ Shane Last edited by Arsonism; 08-30-2016 at 08:31 PM..*
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08-31-2016, 04:26 PM	#230
wdb dances with roads 4718 Rep 4,096 Posts Drives: '07 E86, '02 996, '95 Seven Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: the perimeter iTrader: (4)	Still here, still following, still hoping for a good outcome.
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09-01-2016, 08:31 PM	#232
inTgr8r Lieutenant General 2426 Rep 11,667 Posts Drives: M2 Comp Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto iTrader: (10)	Best of luck with this Shane __________________ '21 M2C Hockenheim Silver '18 718 Cayman S Lava Orange (sold) '13 E92 M3 Santorini Blue (sold) '07 Z4 M Coupe Alpine White (sold)
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09-02-2016, 01:07 PM	#233
Huz-Z Brigadier General 851 Rep 4,057 Posts Drives: Z4 3.0si, 328 XDrive, X5 35i Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada iTrader: (0)	OMFG I would be terribly frustrated after so long. Dunno if this is practical or not, but isn't there a guy in the Classifieds section parting out a Z4M roadie? Could that motor be sourced to replace yours? __________________ Huz-Z BMW Z4 3.0si Roadster. Montego Blue Metallic. Premium and Sport Package.
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09-05-2016, 05:23 PM	#235
LangRacingDevelopment Private First Class 59 Rep 109 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Irvine, CA iTrader: (0)	It would have been pretty unusual to be able to have a good enough block to use the stock bore, that's pretty uncommon. I've tried it before and ended up with high oil consumption and had to tear down the thing and bore/hone to the next size up. I've got a big custom order in with Mahle to make a run of 87.25 and 87.5mm 11.5CR pistons for all the stock rebuilds going on. I for one am getting tired of only having 1 rebuild on every block. Blocks are getting way to hard to find these days.
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09-09-2016, 12:35 AM	#241
Vanne Down Under!! 1621 Rep 4,294 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Dubai iTrader: (4)	Glad Lang dropped into this discussion, competent advise is always welcome. Thanks. Shane, man still standing by, amazed at the lenght, pitfalls and heartache you've gone through mate.
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09-09-2016, 02:56 PM	#242
LangRacingDevelopment Private First Class 59 Rep 109 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Irvine, CA iTrader: (0)	I decided I would skim through the entire thread and I think I now understand what happened a little better so maybe I can make comments that are more useful this time around. Your new block, I imagine, now won't carry that wonderful and expensive 2 year warranty from BMW so I would expect, since the shop made some mistakes leading to its damage, that they should offer you a complete 2 year warranty on this new rebuilt engine similar to what you would have gotten for the block you paid big money for. So your brand new block now is so damaged it cannot be used? If you are using a 60k mile block now it should not be used with the brand new pistons you received with your other block, a hone on a 60k mile block is not the same as a bore and hone to the next oversize. I wouldn't let them do this, they are just trying to avoid buying another set of pistons. You paid alot to have 87mm BMW Mahle pistons in a BMW bored and honed block and now you aren't getting that, I'd be pretty upset about that. But, you're being nice and not forcing them to buy you a new BMW block. If it were me I would probably consider using an aftermarket piston at 87.5mm and boring and honing either your new BMW block or this used one they are providing to 87.5mm so you have a guaranteed straight and clean cylinder. Maybe I missed the reason why they needed to get a whole new donor engine rather than try to rebuild the same engine a 2nd time. You asked them for a data sheet from the machine shop and I can understand them not having that, my machine shop doesn't usually give me any numbers, just a pass or fail. That being said, it's the engine assemblers job to double check everything the machine shop does. That means checking main bearing and rod bearing clearances. It sounds like if they had done this they would have seen that they had a journal that was damaged (if that was the case). I suppose they could have also had a bent crankshaft, but they should have noticed that during assembly, the crank doesn't spin well if its bent. On I-6 engines we always have these cranks straightened, they usually have slight bend to them. If the rod was bent that would make sense considering you probably had lots of water in that first engine with the cracked cylinder wall and that will usually bend a rod, but that is once again something the machine shop should have been able to see pretty easily. Sounds to me like it just wasn't a thorough enough job at bottom end assembly. What would be more of a shame is spending 16k to end up with an engine you could have bought for much less than that. I'm sure I missed some things so correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps have them test drive the car for a day or two before picking it up next time, that is usually enough time for assembly mistakes to show up. Glad to see they are standing behind their work and getting you another engine.
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