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      03-01-2010, 04:40 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
This kids a joke....
+1 dude push this rubbish on a crowd that is stupid enough to believe you.

I would also love to see how competitive you are at autoXing your ///M...
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      03-01-2010, 04:43 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onelove View Post
I used the alternative method as well, practice every day on my commute to work, trips to the grocery store, etc. It's quite funny how many people will try to race you thinking you're "reving" at them but I just ignore it. I've also found it a lot easier to learn with sport mode off, but have things figured out where I can also manage with it on now as well.
really? its easier to rev match for me with the sport button on....the launch is tricky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onelove View Post
Most current race cars use sequential dog-gear style transmissions which only hammer O-cha's point further. The clutch is used to get the car moving, but between gear shifts up and down only a momentary release of the gas is required to prevent torque transfer from gear to gear. The engine remains loaded except for a brief second for gear changes.
i know, i was just using it to make a point. thanks though.
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      03-01-2010, 08:39 PM   #47
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Wow. Its like having a conversation with kids.

Look you can believe what you want but to disprove someone have some kind of educated explanation on why you think its wrong. Don't go comparing our cars to cars that are in professional racing (rolex, F1, etc). The cars they are run is nothing close to what we run.

Be more opened minded people.
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      03-01-2010, 09:10 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroselect View Post
Wow. Its like having a conversation with kids.

Look you can believe what you want but to disprove someone have some kind of educated explanation on why you think its wrong. Don't go comparing our cars to cars that are in professional racing (rolex, F1, etc). The cars they are run is nothing close to what we run.

Be more opened minded people.
I am totally open minded but you are also totally wrong. The only person that is acting childish here is you. You come on a forum and advocae a technique that any driving instructor worth his salt will tell you is wrong(whether it be ALMS, F1, WRC, CCA Club racing, Street cars ). Then when people call you out on it you call us children? Since 99.99999999% of the performance driving public brakes in the complete opposite manner as you I think it is up to you to prove us wrong. Here is a great example of why you are wrong. Last summer I wanted to have a driving instructor ride shot gun with me to pick apart my driving skills so I hooked up with a couple VERY successful BMW club racers. Peter Carrol and John Dimoff of Raven Performance and based on the results of these guys in BMW CCA club racing they really know what they are doing. I was listening in on the beginners drivers meeting and one of the main comments they had was that unless you know how to properally heal toe you are only going to be able to go so far in performance driving. Why would they say this if the way your describing is the better way? I would tend to trust these guy alittle more then somebody like your self but hey maybe your a professional race car driver. If you are prove us wrong! I am all ears and I am always looking to improve my skills and speed. If your technique is actually faster show us how it is but I HIGHLY doubt it is.
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      03-01-2010, 11:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroselect View Post
Wow. Its like having a conversation with kids.

Look you can believe what you want but to disprove someone have some kind of educated explanation on why you think its wrong. Don't go comparing our cars to cars that are in professional racing (rolex, F1, etc). The cars they are run is nothing close to what we run.

Be more opened minded people.


This guy HAS to be a troll, there's absolutely no way someones this dumb.
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      03-02-2010, 08:19 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by F360C View Post
I am totally open minded but you are also totally wrong.
You go on to say your totally open minded and then "you are also totally wrong" how is this opend minded? Seriously is that really being open minded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F360C View Post
I was listening in on the beginners drivers meeting and one of the main comments they had was that unless you know how to properally heal toe you are only going to be able to go so far in performance driving.
Heel and Toe is a techinque to "rev match" while still braking. This doesn't disprove me because you still have to "heel and toe" at the end very end of your braking before your turn in (or sometimes while in your turn in). Understand that the clutch in and braking is only done at the end of a very long straight. When your going from 160+mph in 6th gear and having to brake down to 60mph into 3rd gear.

If you feel that engine braking is the best then you would maximize this by rowing through the gears with the most amount of rpm without going over redline. You should be taught that rather than going through the gears going into 6th gear to 3rd gear. Now this is getting into a different subject.

Next track event bring it up in the classes and to the instructors. Also go take a ride along and see how what they do at the end of a main straight.
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      03-02-2010, 09:03 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroselect View Post
Wow. Its like having a conversation with kids.

Look you can believe what you want but to disprove someone have some kind of educated explanation on why you think its wrong. Don't go comparing our cars to cars that are in professional racing (rolex, F1, etc). The cars they are run is nothing close to what we run.

Be more opened minded people.
Racing Principles are racing principles. When it comes down to it racing is all about the balancing of weight on the contact patches (all 4 of them) and connecting dots to achieve the shortest distance possible at speed. There is a reason professional race series develop the equipment and principles they do, while the car does change the way it's driven, the end results and goals are the same.

The reason you heel toe is in order to keep the car loaded properly coming out of the corner, on the initial bite you'll have the majority of the weight transferred to the front under braking to allow the front wheels to turn in, however once you pass the initial turn in point the goal is to transfer the load from the front to the rear in a controlled manner to come out in power, it's less about engine braking than it is about keeping the car properly loaded for ideal weight transfer to the wheels that will accelerate you out of the corner.

I've done plenty of ride arounds in various cars from cup cars, Ferrari challenge,street cars, etc and I've yet to see an instructor hold the clutch in going through a corner. That being said whats the first thing you do in a spin (hint : both feet in)
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      03-02-2010, 10:02 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by onelove View Post
Racing Principles are racing principles. When it comes down to it racing is all about the balancing of weight on the contact patches (all 4 of them) and connecting dots to achieve the shortest distance possible at speed. There is a reason professional race series develop the equipment and principles they do, while the car does change the way it's driven, the end results and goals are the same.

The reason you heel toe is in order to keep the car loaded properly coming out of the corner, on the initial bite you'll have the majority of the weight transferred to the front under braking to allow the front wheels to turn in, however once you pass the initial turn in point the goal is to transfer the load from the front to the rear in a controlled manner to come out in power, it's less about engine braking than it is about keeping the car properly loaded for ideal weight transfer to the wheels that will accelerate you out of the corner.

I've done plenty of ride arounds in various cars from cup cars, Ferrari challenge,street cars, etc and I've yet to see an instructor hold the clutch in going through a corner. That being said whats the first thing you do in a spin (hint : both feet in)
I didn't say you hold your clutch in while at turn but at the moment of intial braking from a main straight all they way until you get into your turn in.

So to clarify:

Coming to braking point from 160+mph 6th gear
-Brake, clutch pedal depressed, and shift into neutral then into third
-before moment of turn in heel and toe to rematch and releas clutch
-then turn in

Getting into weight transfer is a different discussion and goes into why you brake into corners, left foot braking, and car rotations (etc.)
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      03-02-2010, 10:21 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroselect View Post
I didn't say you hold your clutch in while at turn but at the moment of intial braking from a main straight all they way until you get into your turn in.

So to clarify:

Coming to braking point from 160+mph 6th gear
-Brake, clutch pedal depressed, and shift into neutral then into third
-before moment of turn in heel and toe to rematch and releas clutch
-then turn in

Getting into weight transfer is a different discussion and goes into why you brake into corners, left foot braking, and car rotations (etc.)
I am sorry but your "technique" or better yet lack there of is wrong. As I said before you wrong but prove to me that your way is right and I will believe you. Now I am not talking about you using your ill conceived logic to prove me wrong but instead a driving insturctor, pro race car driver or even some book about driving that explains the same technique you talk about. Please explain what if any the advantage of disconnecting the wheels from the drive train? The drive train acts like a brake in it self in slowing down the car and why you wouldn't want this to help with slowing down the car is beyond me. As O-cha mentioned go out in you car and go to a constant speed and push in the clutch don't use the brakes and see how long it takes you car to come to a stop. Next do the same thing but don't push in the clutch and see how long it takes the car to come to a stop. The car will come to a stop much fast if the clutch is not pushed in. You mentioned to me to bring up your "technique" in a drivers meeting and see what they have to say. I really don't have to do this because way back in the day when I took M School in SC with Donny Isly and Paul Mazzacane there wasa how class devoted to heel toeing so we could use the engine braking to help slow the car. It was explained over and over again how engine braking is an essential tool to help slow the car as fast as possible. Again I ask why EVERY driving school teaches a technique that is totally different the what you preach if it not the fastest way around a track? In fact every once in a while when I mis a gear on down shift on the track and I have to keep the clutch pushed in while I find the right gear I have to use way more brake and the braking distance is longer. This is because I have lost the additional braking that the drivetrain provides.

I am beginning to think you really are a troll but either way my god I hope I am not ever on the track with you if you really are for real.
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      03-02-2010, 10:55 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F360C View Post
I am sorry but your "technique" or better yet lack there of is wrong. As I said before you wrong but prove to me that your way is right and I will believe you. Now I am not talking about you using your ill conceived logic to prove me wrong but instead a driving insturctor, pro race car driver or even some book about driving that explains the same technique you talk about. Please explain what if any the advantage of disconnecting the wheels from the drive train? The drive train acts like a brake in it self in slowing down the car and why you wouldn't want this to help with slowing down the car is beyond me. As O-cha mentioned go out in you car and go to a constant speed and push in the clutch don't use the brakes and see how long it takes you car to come to a stop. Next do the same thing but don't push in the clutch and see how long it takes the car to come to a stop. The car will come to a stop much fast if the clutch is not pushed in. You mentioned to me to bring up your "technique" in a drivers meeting and see what they have to say. I really don't have to do this because way back in the day when I took M School in SC with Donny Isly and Paul Mazzacane there wasa how class devoted to heel toeing so we could use the engine braking to help slow the car. It was explained over and over again how engine braking is an essential tool to help slow the car as fast as possible. Again I ask why EVERY driving school teaches a technique that is totally different the what you preach if it not the fastest way around a track? In fact every once in a while when I mis a gear on down shift on the track and I have to keep the clutch pushed in while I find the right gear I have to use way more brake and the braking distance is longer. This is because I have lost the additional braking that the drivetrain provides.

I am beginning to think you really are a troll but either way my god I hope I am not ever on the track with you if you really are for real.
This isn't Engine braking VS No Engine Braking but Engine Braking+Brakes VS No Engine Braking+Brakes.

The engine does slow down your car but with modern racing brake pads the friction goes beyond the capability of engine braking. That rotational force of the engine get to a point where the engine stop helping you brake and goes against slowing you down. Rather than just using the brakes for slowing down the kenetic energy of your car moving forward but now it also have to deal with the rotational energy of the the engine.
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      03-02-2010, 12:32 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroselect View Post
This isn't Engine braking VS No Engine Braking but Engine Braking+Brakes VS No Engine Braking+Brakes.

The engine does slow down your car but with modern racing brake pads the friction goes beyond the capability of engine braking. That rotational force of the engine get to a point where the engine stop helping you brake and goes against slowing you down. Rather than just using the brakes for slowing down the kenetic energy of your car moving forward but now it also have to deal with the rotational energy of the the engine.

Please show me a dynamic analysis of your "basis" of information. Because by your theory it means that most of the motoring and motorsport industry has been doing braking advancements and balancing completely wrong. If you can't prove your data your words are worth jack. troll somewhere else

it also means that the SAE club at my university has been doing research and development completely wrong and that we have no knowledge of movement physics.
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      03-02-2010, 04:59 PM   #56
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Stop entertaining this kid guys, he's a troll, someone who just posts things to get peoples panties in a bunch and gets of on it.
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      03-02-2010, 08:50 PM   #57
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Wow. This is some heated heel and toe talk. I'm still no good at heel and toeing my M Coupe. Got it down like second nature in my Spec Miata, and almost have it in the Elise. All's I was gonna suggest is don't be shy about adjusting pedals or bolting blocks or extensions to your pedals to suit your needs. If it works, it works...
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      03-04-2010, 05:25 AM   #58
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Does anyone here use accelerator pedal extensions like those found in Ultimate Pedals? I was considering getting a set, but would like some feedback of anyone who might already have a set.

http://www.ultimatepedals.com/catalo...oducts_id=2147
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      03-04-2010, 12:18 PM   #59
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Does anyone here use accelerator pedal extensions like those found in Ultimate Pedals? I was considering getting a set, but would like some feedback of anyone who might already have a set.

http://www.ultimatepedals.com/catalo...oducts_id=2147
I'm using the the ultimate pedals with the lower left extension and its helped with heel-toeing a lot for me. I have some spinal nerve injuries so its hard for me to swing my right foot around all the way on stock pedals. Do be careful about braking though, the extension while not HUGE it does make the throttle become fairly close to the brake pedal. I'll try to pm you pictures later today.
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      03-05-2010, 10:12 AM   #60
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I've always been fine heel-toeing for 30 years on the street, but did my first school this past weekend and it was a disaster. My racing shoes are much narrower than what I usually wear, and I wasn't able to reach the accelerator with the side of the ball of my foot as I usually do. Went to using my heel, but picking my heel up off the floor made my braking really unstable/inconsistent. So . . . I'm thinking that the Ultimate Pedal with the full side extension would be better for me than the lower extensiion. Anyone running the full-extension version, and any problems with it?

Thanks
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      03-09-2010, 02:59 PM   #61
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I think planting your heel on the floor panel when braking is a bad habit. IMO, the best way of heel and toeing is to swing your heel and use it to depress the gas pedal. Otherwise, there is a chance your foot will get jammed between the pedals. I know of one "experienced" track driver who spun out that way. I played around with extension plates a little in the past, but decided against them--not only because of the potential jamming issue but also due to the possibility of inadvertently catching the throttle while braking, which happened to me a few times. Anyway, there will be different opinions on this, but I think the cleanest and most consistent way is to swing out the heel. Also, heel and toeing is somewhat different on the street vs track as on the street you won't be standing on the brakes the way you would on the track. My 2 cents…
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      04-21-2010, 07:58 PM   #62
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Pad riser?

So my problem was that I couldn't heel toe. I was finding my brake pedal at the end of a straight, was ending below the level of the accelerator. This was making rolling my foot impossible, because I was already below the level of the accelerator.
So I'm wondering if anyone can recommend an adjustable system to add height to the brake pedal, so when I'm standing on it, I'll be closer to level with the accelerator?
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      04-21-2010, 09:37 PM   #63
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Ultimate pedals have good extensions. http://www.ultimatepedals.com/

Without extensions for the Z4M Coupe, it's going to be VERY difficult trying to heel-toe using the old traditional (use tip of foot to HT). Whoever told you this was easy in a Z4M, obviously have not driven it. With racing shoes, it's already not possible to keep even 10% of my toe area on top of the braking pedal. It's not just silly, it's VERY dangerous on track if you slip your feet trying to rev match.

I am a US foot size 9. Other race cars have their pedals (brake+gas) adjusted closely together so it's not hard to do so. It depends on your cockpit size and pedal adjustments. Street cars like ours, don't have them spaced so closely together because they're not race cars in the first place. AusTTin Bob noted that right in this post.


For example:
Lotus Elise Pedals -


Pic of someone's foot on it.


[u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uy9vxvNd1Vk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uy9vxvNd1Vk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]


Ayrton Senna in a NSX (tip of toe to heel-toe)
[u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8By2AEsGAhU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8By2AEsGAhU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]

Keiichi Tsuchiya Heel toe technique (base of foot to heel-toe)
[u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BLflNPLJ1pY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BLflNPLJ1pY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]


Chill guys. All-talk and flames are crazy in here.
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      04-21-2010, 11:00 PM   #64
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So my problem was that I couldn't heel toe. I was finding my brake pedal at the end of a straight, was ending below the level of the accelerator. This was making rolling my foot impossible, because I was already below the level of the accelerator.
So I'm wondering if anyone can recommend an adjustable system to add height to the brake pedal, so when I'm standing on it, I'll be closer to level with the accelerator?
i heel-toe like senna does in his video-- i'm guessing you're saying that you were trying to do it the same-- brake with ball of foot, blip throttle with lateral side of foot.

what you don't see in the senna video is what he is doing with his right knee. if you move your right knee as far as you can to the left while braking, then you can brake as hard and deep as you want with the ball of the big toe and still not hit the gas. move knee to the right to lower the lateral foot onto the gas pedal for a blip.

it's this sort of thing that you can't practice on the street, because you essentially never brake that deeply.

other ways (heel on brake, toes on gas, or vice versa), to me, are much harder because you are trying to do a moderate movement with the ankle while the leg is pushing out very hard while braking- that would be like trying to write while arm wrestling. with senna's way, you control how strong the blip is by how far you move the knee to the right.
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      04-22-2010, 07:35 AM   #65
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maybe i've got something wrong

Ryanchua, and R32, Thanks for your input. The method you describe is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. I agree that doing anything other than using the right side of my right foot to control throttle seems unnatural. More so for me as my right foot was crushed by a car while I was on my motorcycle, so using my actual heel to do anything doesn't seem to work.
I use the roll method on my 83 rabbit GTi that I autocross and nearly every other manual car I've driven. In fact, the Z4MCoupe works fine at street speeds. My problem is at the end of high speed straights, after scrubbing 100mph, I find the travel of the brake pedal is below the level of the throttle.
So while the ultimate pedals solve the distance between the brake and throttle, it doesn't solve the mis-matching heights. (I think). Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
The solution that was suggested is to add a pad to the brake pedal that will allow it's final height to be closer to that of the throttle when I'm standing on the brake.
What I'm wondering is.. does anyone have a suggestion that might be better than bolting a piece of plywood to the brake pedal? Does anyone make an aluminum brake pedal that provides good traction that is height adjustable?
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      04-23-2010, 12:41 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroselect View Post
I didn't say you hold your clutch in while at turn but at the moment of intial braking from a main straight all they way until you get into your turn in.

So to clarify:

Coming to braking point from 160+mph 6th gear
-Brake, clutch pedal depressed, and shift into neutral then into third
-before moment of turn in heel and toe to rematch and releas clutch
-then turn in

Getting into weight transfer is a different discussion and goes into why you brake into corners, left foot braking, and car rotations (etc.)
Have you actually been on a track where you can hit 160+ mph before?

The fastest track out west, Cal, er, Auto Club Speedway, uses one of the longest and biggest ovals NASCAR has on their schedule, and even with an M6 I can only get it up to about 145 mph. Car(s) that are capable of hitting more than (160+mph) that are either racecars with massive down-force that uses some sort of fancy Hewland with straight cut gears and sequential shift (ala Grand-Am Prototypes I think) and/or tube-framed cars like the GT2/3 classes which none of them will use traditional clutches.

Even Ferrari's and Porsche Carrera GTs struggle to hit 160+ mph on street tires at Auto Club Speedway. Have you any idea how hard it is for ANY street car to hit 160+ on most tracks?

Have you actually driven on a track before?
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