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      11-12-2014, 08:46 AM   #1
funkle
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The decline of the 3 series

While our Mini is in the body shop, we were given a 328i as a rental. I've been driving the car for a week now. When pushed, and in sport mode, it is fairly capable & balanced, but so much of the BMWness is totally gone. First of all, the thing is huge. And the steering feel & sense of engagement - it may as well be a Toyota Camry. I realize that all of this has been said a bazillion times, and this is the base model, but it's just sad. Having owned an e36 and an e46, and driven plenty of e90s, I've felt the progression from a very direct, connected feel to the current almost totally detached state. The e46, and the e90 to a certain degree added some desirable civility. But the f30 has taken this progression too far. BMW's motivation is totally understandable given the current market for the 3 series, and the general direction cars are going (rolling iPads). It just bums me out to see the passing of an era.


(Sorry to post my rant here, I just wanted to stay out of the fray of the general, or 3 series forum)
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      11-12-2014, 09:34 AM   #2
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Yep, and I'd even go so far as to say it died with the E46. I purchased an E46 M3 about eight years ago, after coming from an E36 M3, two Z3M roadsters, and a Z3M coupe all of which I absolutely adored. Let me tell you, I despised the E46 M3 after about a week and sold it within a month. The car to me had absolutely no soul, I HATED it.

If I was forced to make a decision between any of the prior M3s, I'd take an E36 M3 in good condition over any of them.
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      11-12-2014, 09:48 AM   #3
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I agree 100% with the OP. When BMW wen't away from the dash/controls that were angled toward the driver (E90) the nail was in the coffin. BMW spent the 70s/80s/90s building the brand and image so that every rich kid, housewife, and corporate douche would want one. Since all this demographic cares about is that the roundel is on the hood/steering wheel to be seen in their instagram post, the driving experience isn't a selling point anymore. To get anything resembling the Ultimate Driving Machine nowadays you have to pay out the ass for an M or non M optioned to the teeth with sport packages. Even then it is only a faint representation of what once was. Gone like a fart in the the wind.
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      11-12-2014, 09:49 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Yep, and I'd even go so far as to say it died with the E46. I purchased an E46 M3 about eight years ago, after coming from an E36 M3, two Z3M roadsters, and a Z3M coupe all of which I absolutely adored. Let me tell you, I despised the E46 M3 after about a week and sold it within a month. The car to me had absolutely no soul, I HATED it.

If I was forced to make a decision between any of the prior M3s, I'd take an E36 M3 in good condition over any of them.
I imagine they are hard to find in good condition/low milage. I see lots of them on the road here that look pretty trashed, which I suppose is a testament to their durability. I have a friend who has one with well over 100K. His philosophy is basically to not maintain the car other than what is needed to keep it on the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3power13 View Post
I agree 100% with the OP. When BMW wen't away from the dash/controls that were angled toward the driver (E90) the nail was in the coffin. BMW spent the 70s/80s/90s building the brand and image so that every rich kid, housewife, and corporate douche would want one. Since all this demographic cares about is that the roundel is on the hood/steering wheel to be seen in their instagram post, the driving experience isn't a selling point anymore. To get anything resembling the Ultimate Driving Machine nowadays you have to pay out the ass for an M or non M optioned to the teeth with sport packages. Even then it is only a faint representation of what once was. Gone like a fart in the the wind.
It seems that every car manufacturer wants to have an offering appealing to every segment, to the point where they will change their cars to be more directly comparable to their competitors cars (like Audi & BMW have done with the 3 series/A4). I guess it must make sense at a corporate level, but it just seems crazy from the buyer's pov. And goes against everything I know about marketing by building an identifiable specialty which sets you apart. I miss the the days when each marque had it's own niche.

Last edited by funkle; 11-12-2014 at 09:57 AM..
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      11-12-2014, 10:42 AM   #5
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Sadly, can you blame BMW (or Audi or whatever)?

It seems to be what most people want today- most don't give a crap about what you mentioned- they don't see a car as an amazing piece of engineering and ingenuity - they see it as an appliance that must be dealt with to get from point A to point B. Road feeling? what is that? Does it interface with my iPod? That's important.

BMW is a business - and businesses are in the business of making profit. Unfortunately people like you (and the rest of us in this forum and others) are the weirdo minority. We aren't a big enough market share anymore.

Even more reason for us to hang onto these cars and not let them go!!
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      11-12-2014, 11:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gas-can View Post
Sadly, can you blame BMW (or Audi or whatever)?

It seems to be what most people want today- most don't give a crap about what you mentioned- they don't see a car as an amazing piece of engineering and ingenuity - they see it as an appliance that must be dealt with to get from point A to point B. Road feeling? what is that? Does it interface with my iPod? That's important.

BMW is a business - and businesses are in the business of making profit. Unfortunately people like you (and the rest of us in this forum and others) are the weirdo minority. We aren't a big enough market share anymore.

Even more reason for us to hang onto these cars and not let them go!!
I actually think people still do get excited about cars, but it is for other reasons. Some people geek on green technology (why else would someone shell out 80K+ for a Tesla), or on the interior technology. The Asian market is really driving things now, and I hear the interior electronics is one of the biggest selling points.
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      11-12-2014, 02:08 PM   #7
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I totally agree that the mid/late 90s was really the pinnacle for BMW, with the exception of the Z4 which lasted until 2006... it is really sad to see things change - I still have a '00 M5 which I will never get rid of for this purpose - the car is just too good, and even then some would say its isolated compared to its predecessors...

The news cars are nice, but you guys are right, too much like an appliance. If you think about it, what is differentiating the 3 series from a Toyota Camry now? You can get all the bells and whistles (including a fake leather dashboard!) in a Camry now. The general public says, "Who cares other than the badge?"...other than the roundel on the hood and some styling cues, there really isn't much to differentiate the cars anymore.

The allure of technology is a temporary one....as someone who has a 10 year old NAV system in their car, yes it still works, yes it still gets you from point A to B....but it looks dated. 10 years from now the current generation of cars will look outdated in terms of tech.

....and what was BMW thinking with the NAV screen sticking out of the dash? Awkward...

BMW will tell you the 2 series is really what enthusiasts desire now....but some of us still want a larger car with just the basics. We won't ever get that, not these days anyway.

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      11-12-2014, 02:38 PM   #8
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I agree with almost all of the comments and sentiments. BMW is riding on its past image. The electric power steering and runflat tires on our E85s was a start in the wrong direction. The current E89 Z4 has evolved into a SLK-wannabe and is not quite as good as the SLK.

I wonder how long before the general public realizes what is going on and BMW's reputation becomes seriously damaged. If you are old enough, remember what happened to Cadillac in the 80's and 90's. Before then, they defined the luxury car segment in this country. With a couple of decades of pure crap, however, their reputation became so damaged that their cars (which are quite good these days) are now tough sells.
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      11-12-2014, 03:11 PM   #9
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Agreed, funkle - I sold my 2001 e46 coupe and still miss it. Won't sell the Z4M, as it is the last of the "real" BMW's IMHO. Bought my wife a used 2006 e46 ZHP convertible, way better (certainly for the price!) than new!
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      11-12-2014, 03:24 PM   #10
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      11-12-2014, 06:49 PM   #11
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I certainly don't consider myself to be a gear head by any means and most of you really know your stuff. But I am confused. How is it that Car and Driver can say such great things about the new M3?
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      11-12-2014, 09:10 PM   #12
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+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjbstewart View Post
Agreed, funkle - I sold my 2001 e46 coupe and still miss it. Won't sell the Z4M, as it is the last of the "real" BMW's IMHO. Bought my wife a used 2006 e46 ZHP convertible, way better (certainly for the price!) than new!
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      11-12-2014, 10:41 PM   #13
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I certainly don't consider myself to be a gear head by any means and most of you really know your stuff. But I am confused. How is it that Car and Driver can say such great things about the new M3?
The m-models aren't the subject of the disappointment being expressed here

We have a late model e92 328 that I think is a fun little car. Well, maybe "little" isn't the best choice of word, but still...
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      11-13-2014, 02:22 AM   #14
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The biggest disappointment for me is the size. Everything else can be corrected with options or trim levels (of course at great expense), but the size is just ridiculous. Have you ever seen a current gen 3 series parked next to a 5 series from like 10 years ago? The 3 series is bigger. Its ridiculous.
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      11-13-2014, 08:23 AM   #15
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You cant compare it to the 3 series of the past, compare it with the A4, C class, ATS all in the same trim level and then come back.

But then again the general bmw is for the masses. We're the reason the company makes Ms and ISs
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      11-13-2014, 11:01 AM   #16
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They also now have all these new series: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...

What happened to the 1, oh its the new 2, WHY?

Where is the 3 coupe? oh its the new 4, but then they also make a 4 door, what the hell? and then I cannot figure out if they offer a manual in the 4 series at all, does not look like it is allowed :-(

I enjoyed the girlfriend's leased 2011 3 series, but being an auto without paddles it was just not the fun it could have been. It did have the nice strait 6 that defines the BMW to me. Say good bye to that 6 :-(

I dislike the look and price break of the new Z4. I still wonder why there is not a rag top option. Does BMW even still make a non hard top convertible?

I also do not like driving down the highway with my radar detector going off at all of the cars that have this 'avoidance' laser/radar so they can pay less attention to the road.

Oddly enough, the Accord and Camry have grown every year since they were introduced. I see a trend here, I am unable to tell the difference between a 3 and 5 series and the X3 and X5.

Steve

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      11-13-2014, 11:26 AM   #17
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I agree with the sentiments expressed here, but have to admit that we do sound like a bunch of mad old men, moaning about the days gone past.


Get off my lawn!
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      11-13-2014, 11:38 AM   #18
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oh its the new 4, but then they also make a 4 door, what the hell?
Steve
I never knew they make a 4 door 4 series. That's retarded.

I like the 2 series hatchbacks, but don't care for the look of the sedans. Too bad they killed the Z2. That may have been a cool car.
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      11-13-2014, 01:05 PM   #19
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I also do not like driving down the highway with my radar detector going off at all of the cars that have this 'avoidance' laser/radar so they can pay less attention to the road.
Wow, I've never even thought of that. I've never used a radar detector, but that has to be incredibly annoying.
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      11-13-2014, 01:32 PM   #20
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I agree with the sentiments expressed here, but have to admit that we do sound like a bunch of mad old men, moaning about the days gone past.

Get off my lawn!
And yes we do. Add my wife to that, and she'll join you on the porch with a rocking chair, shotgun, and some rock salt!

It's to be expected though. Anyone driving a dedicated 2 seat sports car (folks on this forum) are going to be looking for a very different driving experience than 98%+ of the folks on the road. That's just to start with, then we get into the details of how we want that experience to be more precisely defined. The Miata is a two seater, but it's not what we drive.

Driver engagement and involvement are paramount most of this forum. That means 3 pedal in most cases, some challenging, even "less than perfect" dynamics (Z4 is not as "balanced" as an M3 or a Cayman), seating position, road "feel", and that elusive mix of other elements that add up to excitement and involvement/engagement in the act of actually driving are our priorities. Road feel for most people--they don't want it--they want an isolated, quiet, tame, and totally predictable experience. We'd see that as boring and pointless.

Examples: As some others will point out the Cayman is a more balanced "better" car, but it's just not engaging, not challenging. (I had one, it just didn't engage me like the Z4M, others have found the same.) The 991 version of the 911 has dialed out all of the "bad" things about the 911. Anyone driven one? I have, and it's really really fast, comfortable, and handles very well. It's faster. It's just about perfect. And to me it seems boring. (Other earlier 911s had, let's say, more character.) A friend of mine summed up my taste by saying "If the car is 'difficult' and might just bite you badly it's your kind of car...." Guilty as charged.

There's a confluence of things that make all of what we value less and less available in modern vehicles. Fuel efficiency and carbon mean turbos (or hybrids) that means there's no need to downshift or manage gears to get engine power. (Turbos aren't "bad", but torque from 1,200 RPM means less effort to exact performance, and that changes driving involvement/engagement.) Larger people mean larger cars, and bulk means a less nimble car. Technology improves and nannies and other tech intervene almost all the time. Road feel and engagement is shunned for comfort. And the big thing now--moving to driverless cars--people find driving to be something that gets in the way of the phone, texting, killing time, or working. For most people Driving isn't fun, a hobby, and end in itself--it's a means to get to the soccer game, the store, or to work. (I really enjoy driving--can't wait to hit the road--I know others here feel the same.) And most people view cars as curious mix of status and appliance.

So, yes, the world is changing and we have different priorities. On the other hand, it may not just be we're "old" or sound old. I'm willing to bet most of the folks who hang out here haven't ever been and will never be followers of the crowd types but rather more free-thinking, DIY, adventuresome, interesting, and dynamic/creative folks.

Last edited by Finnegan; 11-13-2014 at 01:39 PM..
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      11-13-2014, 05:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkle View Post
I never knew they make a 4 door 4 series. That's retarded.

I like the 2 series hatchbacks, but don't care for the look of the sedans. Too bad they killed the Z2. That may have been a cool car.
I thought the new 3 is the 4 door 4 series, and the new 4 is the 2 door 3 series, and the new 2 is the old 1, and the i3 has nothing to do with the 3 series.

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      11-13-2014, 05:52 PM   #22
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I thought the new 3 is the 4 door 4 series, and the new 4 is the 2 door 3 series, and the new 2 is the old 1, and the i3 has nothing to do with the 3 series.

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