Supercharger

[seank]

So, if you we're going to put a super charger on the z4m, which one would you install and why?

In order of importance:

-reliability, no over heating issues

-power

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Rated M Roadster]

Originally Posted by seank

So, if you we're going to put a super charger on the z4m, which one would you install and why?

In order of importance:

-reliability, no over heating issues

-power

Thanks for your thoughts.

Send your car here: http://www.maximumpsi.com and get a turbo tuned by NickG... They're hitting just under 700whp on the E46 M3 with stock DME on interchangeable maps; stock engine. I'm sure they could crack the MSS70 no problem.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...6-M3-Turbo-Kit
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ogress-697-WHP

You would be the man then!

As far as current SC kits on the market, from what I've experienced and seen, both VF and ESS meet your criteria. My kit is very reliable, never had an instance where overheating crossed my mind (did great on the track as well), and it's got loads of power. I don't think you could go wrong with either.

[seank]

So, all there kits are equal, when not referring to power?

There seems to be quite a price differentiation.

Thoughts apprecited

[pokeybritches]

I'm getting my G Power kit installed tomorrow. I'll post a thread.

[Finnegan]

Oh man, I see the future and it's fast!

Sweet!

[beta]

Did you see ESS VT2 vs VF480 vs G-power?

VF and G-Power both have things going for them.

VF is the most stock looking one and is priced well. My concern with VF is that we only have one install of it (rated M). EAS had one installed and couldn't track with it, but also didn't have the latest tune.

We will have one more install of a VF kit soon. Mfanatic325 has a lot of track experience, so we will get very good data on reliability, running temperature and even lap time improvements.

I'm also really looking forward to seeing the result of pokey's install. It would make for two known G-Power. IronZ4M's car is very fast and has a lot of torque (345 ft/lb as much as vt2-525).

If pokey's install also shows a lot of torque there might be something special about the ASA blower. ASA owns G-Power so they don't sell their blowers to anyone else anymore. ESS used to be ASA based.

My personal choice would be the vt2-525 because it is the only kit with an air-to-air intercooler, and having more installed cars it's proven itself reliable.

But if you're not in a rush, it might be smart to see the next two installs play out.

[mfanatic325]

I'm just waiting on some fittings for the upgraded oil cooler lines and for VF to get back to me about my tune...haven't heard from them in a week. I was expecting superior service from VF after all the good things Andrew had to say about them, but have gotten the complete opposite so far: useless time-wasting emails from people that don't follow through, no reply on texts, no callback, no follow-up whatsoever. I just keep getting pushed to the next person down the rank it feels like, and nothing gets done. I'm honestly pretty pissed off about it all. What a shitty experience thus far...

All in all, I can't wait to get everything installed and test the kit out for myself out at the track! I have a feeling I'll be needing clutch and flywheel upgrade soon thereafter though

The VF570 kit is currently the highest-yielding SC kit out there I believe? At 570BHP and 380BTQ. Andrew got 472rwhp and 331rwtq peaks using 91 octane for reference. I'm hoping to make more power than Andrew
ESS VT2-525 has 525BHP and 340BTQ.
G-Power has 470BHP but I'm not sure how much BTQ. Couldn't find it on their site.
Active Autowerk's S/C kit isn't out yet for the Z4M unfortunately.

Only downside I'd think would be that only VF uses A2W intercooling whereas every other kit uses A2A. I'll have to see if it's a deal-breaker under harsh track conditions.

I guess a start for Sean would be to set a budget first, and then maybe do a power/$ ratio as a starter to see which kit is better bang for the buck according to actual quoted prices per kit, etc. etc.

Other aspects you can consider Sean, would be overall look/build of each kit (this will be subjective of course), ease of install, and maybe customer service too.

[ZStig]

I have an ess vt2-500 kit for like 25k miles with no issues other than the oem belt tensioner cracking off one time.

I wish i had the torque of the gpower kit though. My best 1/4 time was 12.16@117 or something like that

[beta]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

The VF570 kit is currently the highest-yielding SC kit out there I believe? At 570BHP and 380BTQ. Andrew got 472rwhp and 331rwtq peaks using 91 octane for reference. I'm hoping to make more power than Andrew
ESS VT2-525 has 525BHP and 340BTQ.
G-Power has 470BHP but I'm not sure how much BTQ. Couldn't find it on their site.

From IronZ4M's thread

The car made 415 RWHP and 345 ft/lb on pump gas 95 (R.O.N) I'll post the chart today I haven't got it yet. and I'll make another run today using race fuel called TORCO 100 UNLEADED 104 (R.O.N).

Taking those numbers with a grain of salt until pokey can confirm. If pokey confirms it, then that's an amazing result, because it would be the kit with the highest boost to torque ratio.

ESS versus VF, the VF kit is running 2 more PSI than the current ESS kit. So with a change in pulley the numbers might be more comparable. We'll have to wait for Roffle or Beedub to upgrade to get current numbers.

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Only downside I'd think would be that only VF uses A2W intercooling whereas every other kit uses A2A. I'll have to see if it's a deal-breaker under harsh track conditions.

Both G-Power and VF use Air-water intercoolers. The only kit with the extra piping for the air-to-air is ESS.

I'm really looking forward to seeing your results. Since you push it extremely hard, it will be a perfect test for Air-to-Water intercooling.

I'm following all of this extremely closely, considering supercharging instead of airbox. Evolve might have missed their chance by waiting so long

[Rated M Roadster]

Originally Posted by beta

I'm really looking forward to seeing your results. Since you push it extremely hard, it will be a perfect test for Air-to-Water intercooling.

I think the air to water systems have been proven by the ESS VT2 585, 625, 650, and 750 on the E9X M3; as well as the VF 620 and 650... All of which are high hp kits using air to water systems.

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by Rated M Roadster

I think the air to water systems have been proven by the ESS VT2 585, 625, 650, and 750 on the E9X M3; as well as the VF 620 and 650... All of which are high hp kits using air to water systems.

Hrm...very good point indeed
Just don't know how hard those cars are run, and in what types of conditions overall.

[Rated M Roadster]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Hrm...very good point indeed
Just don't know how hard those cars are run, and in what types of conditions overall.

Also, Here's a list of SC E9X M3s (I'm sure a few are tracked):

ESS Kit stg ? (VT2 and 3 are A2W intercooled)
1. img : VT3 725
2. Ferre86 : VT2-625
3. m33 : Vt2 650
4. CSMRX7 : vt2 600
5. per : VT-625
6. Bob MG : VT2 600
7. LV-E92M3 : Vt-575
8. Green///Hell : VT2-625
9. termsheet : VT2-575
10. biglare : VT2-575
11. m328ci : VT2-575
12. E90///M3 : VT1-535
13. ecksreturns : VT2-600
14. M3RO : VT2-625
15. 09GARAGE : VT2-600
16. ARASHE90 : VT2-600
17. WG770 : VT2
18. Tyuen : VT2
19. Filin M3 : VT2-600
20. DKMS : VT2-575
21. JCBMW22 : VT2-575
22. M3EST : VT2-575
23. 808E90 : VT1-535
24. Rom3n : VT2-575
25. Silver Standard II : VT1-535
26. HP Man
27. hoshik76 : VT2
28. mikewads : VT2
29. prodigymb : VT2
30. IND Atlantis Blue project
31. Amjad Ali (m5board user from Dubai)
32. stalnoy (m5board)
33. M3 Jaydee (m5board)
34. J M S (m5board)
35. Bob86GN VT2-600
36. UNNATRAL : VT2-625
37. Brosef : VT2-575
38. CBS : VT1
39: WERKE : VT1-535
40. sl0westz :VT!-535
41. DLSJ5 :VT3-725 LC BM
42. Boosted-M : VT2-600
43. mindless.spades : VT1-535
44. dpohlman : VT-1 535
45. Mason3 :VT1-535
46. disapr : VT2-600
47. tinpot : VT2-575
48. chris s : VT2-625
49. SehrSchnell :VT1-535
50. M3EST : VT2-575
51. Daft : VT2-575
52. Nautiluz : vt2-600
53. 1SICKM : vt 650
54. Sharkm3 : vt1 535
55. Erm324 : vt2-625
56. Crs2pepper : vt1-535
57. Arter : vt1-535
58. Phildeez010 : vt - 625
59. Powerbeast : VT2-600
60. NFAM3 : 625
61. 1velosM : 625
62. Veratyr : vt2-600
63. Charlie90m3 : vt1-535
64. Essm3 : vt- 600
65. SEI : vt2-600
66. ole85 : 625
67. Longboarder : vt2-600
68. Alex07m3 : vt1- 535
69. Polonus : vt2- 575
70. Mike V8 : VT2 600
71. J2M : vt2 625
72. tuner1 : vt - 650
73. GOLFFRR : VT2 625
74. lenzm3edan : vt1-550
75. Jbook : VT2-625

VF Engineering (620 and 650 are A2W intercooled)

1. Meez : VF620
2. Tom@EAS : VF620
3. Nik@VFE Vorsteiner GTRS3 Widebody in Matte Green : VF620
4. Arseniy Vorsteiner GTRS3 Widebody in Matte white : VF620
5. VAC Motorsports AW Weekend Warrior track car : VF620
6. Duane : VF620
7. dogbone : Wolf in sheeps clothing : VF620
8. Charles N. : VF620
9. Orange fever : VF620
10. Mbauer : VF620
11. Spotter : VF620
12. dukeM3 : VF620
13. vividracing : VF620
14. P@VMR : VF540 Supercharger
15. Howie Kendrick of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim : VF620
16. Eric R: VF620
17. E92involved : VF620
18. Joe@trinityautosport : VF620
19. ///E-Rod/// : VF620
20. Giggs : VF540 kit
21. The R’s Tuning Vorsteiner GTRS3 Widebody : vf620 kit
22. R's Tuning red e92 : vf650
23. tasi333 : VF 620
24. Bmwkid36 : 620
25. datninja : vf620
26. chriskm3 : vf540 kit

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436070

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Hrm...very good point indeed

An air to water cooling system performs just as well as air to air. Sometimes I read (also here) that an air to water system would be more susceptible to heat soak, but this is not true; it is less susceptible. When an a2w system is heat soaked, that means that the pump isn't pumping enough water. So a good pump is important. But other than that:
- the cooling heat exchanger is much closer to the intakeports, so the air can't be re-heated by the manifold or other parts of the engine
- the cooling heat exchanger also cools the manifold
- You can use a reservoir, so you can buffer the cooling you get from the high speeds and use that to cool when cooling is less sufficient but a lot of heat is generated (for exemple: the straight is cooling all the liquid, incl the reservoir), but when accelerating from the next corner speeds are low but there's a lot of heat (high engine load from accelerating), so there is an extra amount of cool water in the reservoir to cool the intake air.

In the end it all comes down to how much the system (intercooler + piping or ar2water system) reduces the flow of air (drag = loss), and that is a matter of dimensions of the systems, not what type of systems.
An air2water system is less difficult to install I think, due to the smaller pipes it needs.

Other than that I would still go for an ESS system for a z4m, mainly because of all the experience.
It may also be depending on where you're situated: support is everything imho. If you're around the corner from Vf: go to them.

[dre99gsx]

Originally Posted by Rated M Roadster

Send your car here: http://www.maximumpsi.com and get a turbo tuned by NickG... They're hitting just under 700whp on the E46 M3 with stock DME on interchangeable maps; stock engine. I'm sure they could crack the MSS70 no problem.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...6-M3-Turbo-Kit
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ogress-697-WHP

You would be the man then!

As far as current SC kits on the market, from what I've experienced and seen, both VF and ESS meet your criteria. My kit is very reliable, never had an instance where overheating crossed my mind (did great on the track as well), and it's got loads of power. I don't think you could go wrong with either.

They don't plan on supporting the Z4M anytime soon. Goodluck.

[beta]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

An air to water cooling system performs just as well as air to air. Sometimes I read (also here) that an air to water system would be more susceptible to heat soak, but this is not true

Except that it is a well known fact that air-air is less susceptible to heat soak on extended usage. Please review this post. Also there is a limit to how much water you can carry because of the fact that water is heavy.

Now the question we're trying to answer is a practical one.

1. When does it heat soak? If it's beyond the point where the tires and brakes are failing, well then it's good enough for practical purposes and we don't care.

2. How much power does it lose at the limits of usage? If it's still 95% of the power, again it doesn't matter for practical purposes.

These are the questions that only repeated hard usage can answer. We can look at lap times of repeated sessions and see if there is a drop or perceived loss in power. Or if we really wanted good data we could run dynos back to back after sessions.

It may be that, for practical purposes, Air-Water as used and designed into the G-Power or VF kits is more than up to the task.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by beta

Except that it is a well known fact that air-air is less susceptible to heat soak on extended usage. The exception is short runs, or short runs with ice. Please review this post.

The explanation in that post is seriously flawed. The water gets cooled by the front cooler. You dimention the front cooler according to the aquired cooling capacity. The explanation in that post is written as if there is no cooler in front.
He also says that delta T is getting lower. But its not as the front cooler keeps it high. He reads air to water literally, but it is actually air to water to air. It is not a static system.
Do not take flauwed explanations from others as 'facts'.

However there is an explanation in the pictures from his book that favours an air2air setup (although that book is seriously biased and not entirely correct), and it states that the heat is transferred through more surfaces, which act as a resistor. That is true, but an air2air system has more drag in the inlet, and may need larger radiators.
A radiator filled with water can transfer more heat than a radiator filled with air with the same surface for multiple reasons; one is that water is a better heat conductor and when flow would not be 100% turbulent (that chance increases when a large ducting with turbulent air converts to a laminated flow, like in an intercooler), the heat transferred from the inner part of the flow (the center of the ducting, which does not touch the walls) relies on the thermal conductivity of the medium to loose it's heat. That works better with water than air, as the latter one is a better heat insulator. Also the heat resistance between aluminium and water is less than the heat resistance between aluminium and air (these things are related). That's why central heating systems use water as a medium to transfer the energy.

So there is no 'well known fact'; it depends on the dimensions of radiators/heat exchangers, pump capacities, piping diameter etc. It's not a black and white world. The only fact there is, is that it is impossible with air to air to buffer a cold medium, like air2water2air with a reservoir which is -automatically- used when power is high and airflow is low (accelerating out of corners). On high speed parts (after the accelerating from the corner ) the buffer automatically cools, as the heat dissapating capacities from the front cooler ecseed the cooling needs from the compressed air. That is something an air2air system can never do. The only thing you can do is mount fans on your intercooler, but that results in extra parasidic drag by the alternator. In air2air systems heat soak occurs when there is not enough driving airflow going through the intercooler and power requirements are high. That happens every time when accelerating/revving in the lower gears. The more heat capacity you put into your transfer medium, the better you can buffer out these moments. And water is very very good at that (4,2J/g/deg)

[mfanatic325]

Valuable info, thanks

I'm a neutral party despite the fact that my kit is A2W2A. I'm going to wait and see how my particular setup does at the track with my particular driving style

[seank]

The more I read about interoolers, he less I know.

That being said, wouldn't it make the most sense, to buy a high hp system and detune it? The M motor is high strung as it is and I still am not sure that anyone, including myself, can fully utilize that much power on the track to its full potential without larger tires and fender flares. Some of the numbers I am hearing are beyond most professional race classes.

Thoughts of de-tuning or am I missing something?

Vf 570 or ess vt2 525 with only 5psi?
Thanks agin for thoughts an opinions.

[mfanatic325]

I think it's best to just have the power available when you want/need it as opposed to paying all that money but end up purposely putting a cap on it

[beta]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Valuable info, thanks

I'm a neutral party despite the fact that my kit is A2W2A. I'm going to wait and see how my particular setup does at the track with my particular driving style

In the end that's the only valid approach, I'm eagerly awaiting the results of your testing.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Do not take flauwed explanations from others as 'facts'.

I was referring to the book in that post. The point is that the common held knowledge about air-air and air-water is as described.

You did bring up some interesting points, but without quantifiable data we can't really weigh the effects against each other. There's more things you didn't mention like the drop in pressure that air-air has over water-air.

In the end I was not able to find any back to back testing of both types of systems, it could be that the commonly held knowledge is completely wrong.

Originally Posted by seank

Vf 570 or ess vt2 525 with only 5psi?

That's why the G-Power kit is also extremely interesting.

If pokey gets the same torque results as IronZ4M, that means that at 6 psi it has the same or more torque than the other two kits. ESS running at 7* and VF running at 9 psi.

If mfanatic proves out water/air and pokey proves the torque numbers, then g-power/ess would be a tough choice for me.

*ess calls it 8psi, but the dyno from eas as well as their description shows 7 psi.

[pokeybritches]

Does this mean I'm doing a dyno? lol

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

Does this mean I'm doing a dyno? lol

Of course
Do you even need to ask? Silly Josh

I'll eventually do a dyno as well after my install and break-in of all components, etc.