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      01-13-2012, 09:04 PM   #925
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      01-13-2012, 09:08 PM   #926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
Hey! Matt messaged me when you were at the shop. Sorry I couldn't make it out.

Who is doing the tune for you?
Where are you getting your dynos done?

I might be heading out to the dyno next week to measure my new headers.

Hopefully all is well!
VS is doing the tune with evolve, I should be back there next week, the snow made things really difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
After you get the tune, do you think you can keep the headers + tune and take the exhaust back to stock?

Without comparisons where the only variable is the exhaust we really can't know how much HP/TQ your system is responsible for.
The exhaust is designed to work with headers so we will not remove again to test. it increase cost and at this point we don't want spend more then necessary. sorry...

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Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
DKF, i no i seem impatient, i apologise for that....... i WILL be buyin a complete from you, im happy to forward a deposit at any point to hold my position on the group buy....
im not just on here talking smack, im just enthusisatic and love my ///M car..... Either way, im happy to put my money where my mouth is @ any point, right now, these delays are working perfectly for me anyhow as i spent some of my exhaust money on a hardtop.
Don't worry.

I do hope for no more delays tho
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      01-14-2012, 03:01 AM   #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diokaef View Post
The exhaust is designed to work with headers so we will not remove again to test. it increase cost and at this point we don't want spend more then necessary. sorry...
That is the opposite of what I said but I understand you don't want to add more cost.

It's a shame you did not put the headers on first. Roughly 1/2 to 2/3rds of your HP gains are from headers alone, so I'm guessing we can expect 10-15hp from the system you tested; with a tune adding a few more ponies.

If someone from the group buy can do dynos before/after with headers it would be appreciated
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      01-14-2012, 10:23 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by Diokaef View Post
VS is doing the tune with evolve, I should be back there next week, the snow made things really difficult.
Awesome! You are going to love the Evolve Automotive tune! I gained massive power from their tune awhile ago, so I'm sure you'll make some noticeable gains.

Definitely let me know the next time you head down to VSM. I'll be there next week.

For the record, you have the best sounding Z4M I have ever heard. Thanks to you, I have vowed that my next M car will be the Z4M, haha.
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      01-14-2012, 03:34 PM   #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
It's a shame you did not put the headers on first. Roughly 1/2 to 2/3rds of your HP gains are from headers alone, so I'm guessing we can expect 10-15hp from the system you tested; with a tune adding a few more ponies.

If someone from the group buy can do dynos before/after with headers it would be appreciated
Completely agree. In order to really see the effect of the exhaust, you'll need to dyno the car with headers and STOCK exhaust to compare.
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      02-20-2012, 12:02 AM   #930
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Sorry guys, I have being busy with many things but I will update this thread with plenty of extra info in this coming week. I invite you guys to come and check it out, it will be worthy wile.
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      02-28-2012, 12:11 PM   #931
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      02-28-2012, 10:05 PM   #932
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Many are looking for an explanation for your muffler pricing. There is a general feeling that you guys are charging a premium price for “off the shelf” parts since you are using the Aero mufflers. This is a community full of DIYers and there are a couple examples of guys who have built “one-off” axle back muffler using Aero product for a lot less than your GB pricing.

I discussed the price issue with you guys during the weekend I brought my car to your fabricator for final system fitment. At that point in time you outlined for me the differences in your mufflers that drive the cost up. Based on feedback I have received through PMs and posts in the GB & testing threads, many believe you are turning a huge profit on the mufflers. I believe you guys need to give the complete breakdown to the Zpost community on the difference between your mufflers and the “off the self” "one-off" option that is less expensive.
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      02-28-2012, 11:01 PM   #933
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+1 on the pricing. Given the response so far to the GB I think a lot of us are, as Chris noted, trying to figure out why the pricing is as listed is so expensive for the mufflers.

The components (Aeroturbine, Borla) are off the shelf and readily available. Aeroturbine plain cans are ~99 dollars each, and ~110 for the resonated version. Throw in some SS steel pipe, or some off the shelf dual or single tips, and it's a pretty nice setup (like this one) and still around 350 - 400 in parts. With some fabrication, and we're talking around 600 - 650 dollars in parts and labor.

Some here have already built their own systems (Jim's was done a couple of years back by the prior owner of his car) for around that price, and my shop quoted me about the same. Sure, you'll have to hack into the stock X-pipe, but that's not a big deal.

How do we get from that (above) to 1,400 - 1,500 for mufflers alone, or 2,200 - 2,300 when paired with an x-pipe?

You have great product here, and a good array of options to choose from, and what will turn out to be great sound. I appreciate the time and effort to build something for our somewhat niche market. On the other hand, I just can't justify laying out that kind of cash though when I could have my shop do it for so much less, and I'd guess a lot of other are thinking the same thing.

A lot of us would be happy to avoid the hassle of a custom build, and the promise of a consistent looking product. But it needs to be priced with all the considerations noted here in place (or at least explained).
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      02-28-2012, 11:28 PM   #934
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I agree on the sentiments. There is value add here, however it is difficult to asses just how much.

The system seems to be a well thought-out, high quality, turn key solution that is very attractive, but gated by the price of admission.

Having said this I really am on the cusp of jumping in to the GB.
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      02-29-2012, 11:33 AM   #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post

The components (Aeroturbine, Borla) are off the shelf and readily available. Aeroturbine plain cans are ~99 dollars each, and ~110 for the resonated version. Throw in some SS steel pipe, or some off the shelf dual or single tips, and it's a pretty nice setup (like this one) and still around 350 - 400 in parts. With some fabrication, and we're talking around 600 - 650 dollars in parts and labor.

Some here have already built their own systems (Jim's was done a couple of years back by the prior owner of his car) for around that price, and my shop quoted me about the same. Sure, you'll have to hack into the stock X-pipe, but that's not a big deal.
Interesting this has come full circle back to a simplistic system. L&M out the door was $515 just less than 2 years ago for the setup on Jim's car. That's with custom bent stainless steel piping. For an extra $100 we could have built a coupling to match the stock muffler connection and it would have then been a bolt-on with the ability to re-install the factory setup at resale but I wasn't interested. Getting the piping dipped, etc. is a useless expense with zero return. The only thing that visually matters are the tips. Not sure why so much R&D (1+ years?) went into all the periperal portions of this system. As a hobby for a uber rich Dude? Maybe, but I'll never spend more than a reasonable fee for work done. Just my 2 cents and not bashing the new system, just not getting the pricing.
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      02-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #936
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Don't mean to put fuel on the fire but didn't Aero Exhaust go under?
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      02-29-2012, 01:27 PM   #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BookerM3 View Post
Don't mean to put fuel on the fire but didn't Aero Exhaust go under?
I don't think so. There was a rumor spring of last year, but their products are still up for sale, and in stock, from numerous online shops.
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      03-01-2012, 09:37 PM   #938
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So does this mean no one is on board for the DKF system? Btw what ever happened to the GB thread are we still having one?
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      03-01-2012, 11:37 PM   #939
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I would just like to say I have met with DKF multiple times now. His efforts here are top notch in his creation of a full system. Critiques of his pricing could also be said of any currently offered exhaust system. He will not be getting the hours he invested back. The least he can do is try to break even cost wise.
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      03-02-2012, 01:12 AM   #940
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Quote:
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So does this mean no one is on board for the DKF system? Btw what ever happened to the GB thread are we still having one?
Group buy thread is here.
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      03-02-2012, 08:54 AM   #941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackMoupe View Post
I would just like to say I have met with DKF multiple times now. His efforts here are top notch in his creation of a full system. Critiques of his pricing could also be said of any currently offered exhaust system. He will not be getting the hours he invested back. The least he can do is try to break even cost wise.
finally.........

well said
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      03-02-2012, 03:26 PM   #942
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I have to agree with most of what was said above. The system looks beautiful, the welds are great, the hangers are better than stock and the racing style joints are a thing of beauty. Obviously a lot of research went into choosing all the parts, contacting suppliers, etc. If Chris is impressed by the system, that's enough for me, we all know his attention to detail is unparalleled and has one of the best Z4M builds anywhere.

My concern is I don't see the engineering work. I'm not saying it's not there, but so far there has been no mention of any measuring or testing in the development of this system. I'm not saying publish your research, but showing us some results would not give away your secrets while providing useful information.

At the very least the dyno numbers should've been done with the same headers.

Right now it's a beautiful system that sounds great. For some that is all they want, but for me to spend half the money it would take me to get to ESS VT1 I would need to see some compelling performance numbers.
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      03-02-2012, 03:32 PM   #943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
I have to agree with most of what was said above. The system looks beautiful, the welds are great, the hangers are better than stock and the racing style joints are a thing of beauty. Obviously a lot of research went into choosing all the parts, contacting suppliers, etc. If Chris is impressed by the system, that's enough for me, we all know his attention to detail is unparalleled and has one of the best Z4M builds anywhere.

My concern is I don't see the engineering work. I'm not saying it's not there, but so far there has been no mention of any measuring or testing in the development of this system. I'm not saying publish your research, but showing us some results would not give away your secrets while providing useful information.

At the very least the dyno numbers should've been done with the same headers.


Right now it's a beautiful system that sounds great. For some that is all they want, but for me to spend half the money it would take me to get to ESS VT1 I would need to see some compelling performance numbers.
ok now its great to read someone with a proper constructive argument and yeah put like this i see what your saying...... Kinda have to echo this really..... i'm in to buy one but i'm slowing spending my exhaust fund due to the timing and lack of info coming from this..... i've already purchased a hardtop and so on.....
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      03-02-2012, 03:47 PM   #944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
I have to agree with most of what was said above. The system looks beautiful, the welds are great, the hangers are better than stock and the racing style joints are a thing of beauty. Obviously a lot of research went into choosing all the parts, contacting suppliers, etc. If Chris is impressed by the system, that's enough for me, we all know his attention to detail is unparalleled and has one of the best Z4M builds anywhere.

My concern is I don't see the engineering work. I'm not saying it's not there, but so far there has been no mention of any measuring or testing in the development of this system. I'm not saying publish your research, but showing us some results would not give away your secrets while providing useful information.

At the very least the dyno numbers should've been done with the same headers.

Right now it's a beautiful system that sounds great. For some that is all they want, but for me to spend half the money it would take me to get to ESS VT1 I would need to see some compelling performance numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
ok now its great to read someone with a proper constructive argument and yeah put like this i see what your saying...... Kinda have to echo this really..... i'm in to buy one but i'm slowing spending my exhaust fund due to the timing and lack of info coming from this..... i've already purchased a hardtop and so on.....
Beta, well said, and Beedub, yes, this is a better argument. We already know about the system's build quality, which is what I'd call "build elegance and intelligent design". No questions there. As for the rest, Beta lays out the missing elements very clearly. My comments above aside, if the performance and engineering are there, then the value is there.
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      03-02-2012, 10:24 PM   #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crfine88
Many are looking for an explanation for your muffler pricing. There is a general feeling that you guys are charging a premium price for “off the shelf” parts since you are using the Aero mufflers. This is a community full of DIYers and there are a couple examples of guys who have built “one-off” axle back muffler using Aero product for a lot less than your GB pricing.

I discussed the price issue with you guys during the weekend I brought my car to your fabricator for final system fitment. At that point in time you outlined for me the differences in your mufflers that drive the cost up. Based on feedback I have received through PMs and posts in the GB & testing threads, many believe you are turning a huge profit on the mufflers. I believe you guys need to give the complete breakdown to the Zpost community on the difference between your mufflers and the “off the self” "one-off" option that is less expensive.
These are good concerns, without giving away any trade secrets I will try to answer your questions

The mufflers we are using are built specifically for us based on our specifications for performance and sound. We also wanted to show our first customers we are using quality products on our system. We have spent a lot of time on the research in how all all of our components work together to produce a high quality system for a reasonable price.

The ceramic is a necessary component to the mufflers. The coating on the mufflers do not only add protection and add esthetics but play an intricate part on the system. Each part of the system works hand and hand with each other to achieve the goals set initially.

The tips are the last part of our system that shapes the sound. The tips are specially designed to enhance the sound so the end result is truly the sound you desire. Our tips are hand built and designed for equal flow To most of you the way the tips look can either make or break the system. we considered all the input from the forum and tried to design Great looking tips but also functional. All options were considered tip diameter, length, and material, You might say we built the tips to your specs.

Our system is connected with racing clamps and flanges which eliminate turbulence for maximum performance. For those of you Do It Yourself you are going to really appreciate this aspect of the system when it comes to installing or replacing components, this will quickly become an invaluable component to you. For those of you who take it to the shop to be installed (nothing wrong with that) you will be able to say your system uses race technology.

We have searched for a way to get seamless quality welds on our system. We feel our welds provide the maximum strength you can achieve. Our welds not only add esthetics to the system but play another intricate part Since the welds are so smooth they (along with other factors) reduce the horsepower robbing exhaust turbulence

We put an incredibly amount of engineering and research into all components Especially the mufflers the mufflers were made to complement the entire DKF system. We spent hours of time, numerous calculations and program simulators to produce the best system.

I guess to sum it up we have strived to bring our customers the best exhaust system based on racing technology to our customers for the best price possible.

I hope the information we have provided has given some insight to the questions purposed as well as answered them sufficiently

Respectfully
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      03-02-2012, 10:35 PM   #946
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Also I just want to point out that I still out of town and after I go back, I will try to getter some more info for here. One of the reasons that I have not posted much of technical information are due to my English being so bad on the grammatical side and I find really hard to explain my ideas on writing (I'm working on that).

Now for Dynos... We want to get more setups done but the weather here is really crap and we can't get a car there during snow season.
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