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      10-21-2013, 06:29 AM   #23
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I think a lot of people are making this more complicated than it needs to be. As others have alluded to, it's really just a Band-Aid fix either way.

From a design perspective, there are only 2 factors (everything else remaining constant) that affect bearing life.. That is the applied load, and the operating speed. Since we can't easily change the load applied to the bearing, we can change the max RPM the bearing sees.

From my very limited knowledge specific to the S54 engine, it seems that perhaps shifting at 7000-7500RPM has a much greater effect on bearing life than whatever oil you use. There's really not much difference in performance by shifting at the higher RPM, IMO.l
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      10-21-2013, 07:47 AM   #24
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I agree with the above but since I can't deal with the bearing design problem I am left with oil, change interval, and rpm. I would like to use the best oil possible.

Article from BMW Roundel (BMW Club magazine) - Mike Miller in Tech Articles June 2013 -

[IMG]
June 2013 Roundel - Tech Talk by dmorrowzzz, on Flickr[/IMG]

Edit - He also doesn't agree with most of the extended fluid drain intervals that BMW recommends, believes this is a function of Sales/Marketing wanting to decrease ownership costs and he also realizes some of it doesn't matter for the average new car buyer who isn't going to keep the car long enough for most of them to matter.
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      10-21-2013, 08:36 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
That........ no truer words have been spoken...
It could be also that BMW is covering their asses as far as track abuse goes. Much like the Mustang with the track pack, more than an assumption it will see track time and extended intervals of high rpm use - the 5w-50 oil is required for those, otherwise the non track pack is 0w-20/30.
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      10-21-2013, 01:49 PM   #26
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The thing about the Mustang with the track pack, Ford ABSOLUTELY guarantees the engine when in warranty. No questions asked. In June we had a 2013 Mustang (track pack) blow an engine on the track (4600miles) and Ford covered it. No hassles..

In regards to 15K oil changes, while 15K works, you will keep your engine cleaner in the long run doing oil changes at 7K. This is what my upper end looks like at 42K and 30 track days.

Valve train two weeks ago for my valve adjustment:





and the lower end just this weekend when you are stupid (like me) and drop a shim into the oil pan:




The oil pan before removing residue oil:

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      10-21-2013, 02:08 PM   #27
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Shipkiller, you are damn brave to keep that socket rack resting on the manifold there. That looks like an invitation to spend a day looking for sockets in the engine bay
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      10-21-2013, 02:16 PM   #28
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Nice clean valvetrain, Ship! You're right about Ford's warranty, I've heard and read nothing but good things about that aspect. My inquiry was more to the fact that the heavier oil is required for cars with the track pack as opposed to those without where the engine is essentially the same with the exception of an oil cooler. Internal components are the same. Was BMW just doing the TWS as a "you're engine is safe in any environment" as opposed to: "If you visit the racetrack, you are recommended to use a heavier oil, we recommend TWS ... blah blah blah"
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      10-21-2013, 02:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoublehcubed View Post
Shipkiller, you are damn brave to keep that socket rack resting on the manifold there. That looks like an invitation to spend a day looking for sockets in the engine bay
Since I was doing a valve adjustment, I already had the undertray off so I could rotate the engine. If something falls, it just falls through..

The issue was not tools but a valve shim fell... right through an unnoticed oil return port, into the vano/timing chain hole.. Man I was pissed at myself.
I then found out just how the oil pump works and that there is NO WAY for the oil pump to suck something larger than 1/16", but it would have bothered me to no end, so I had to pull the pan this last weekend. It's not as hard as I originally thought. I did have to purchase a engine support bar from Harbor Freight to support the engine because you have to drop the cross member...
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      10-21-2013, 03:15 PM   #30
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I often wondered if something like that tumbled in whether it could be retrieved by removing the sump strainer.
Or at least that's what I'm assuming round cover part #6 here is.

When I had my broken Vanos bolts replaced, the mechanic gave me back 5-1/2 bolts.
I've always hoped the other 1/2 landed on his floor and rolled away.
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      10-21-2013, 03:39 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StickMon View Post
I often wondered if something like that tumbled in whether it could be retrieved by removing the sump strainer.
Or at least that's what I'm assuming round cover part #6 here is.
Most likely not unless it floats on oil. The Vanos/timing chain area is a straight shot to the front recess of the pan.

The oil pump is a two stage scavenged pump. The scavenged part pulls oil from the front of the pan (there is a screen on the inlet) and pumps this through the small tube into the upper portion of the rear of the pan. The rectangular cutout allows the oil to drain into the sump. The other part of the pump has it's pickup in the sump (the large diameter pipe in the picture) and that end is inserted into the cone screen... Also oil falling from the crank, rods and piston cooling orifices drain into the sump through that rectangular opening to the sump.
A pretty ingenuous design to ensure you ALWAYS have oil to the pump.

No way anything larger than a 1/16" of an inch will get into the pump on either end.


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      10-24-2013, 10:03 AM   #32
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All these rod bearing threads lately are making me nervous. Before I bought the car the general consensus was that the later s54 was largely trouble free. Now I'm not so sure. I don't rev into the 7k range, I only drive around town normally and shifting at maybe 4k max. I hope I'm safe. Is this mostly an issue with cars that are tracked or drivers that are constantly ragging on them?
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      10-24-2013, 10:06 AM   #33
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Good to know about stuff not getting sucked into the pump.

However, my fear with dropping a ship up front was that it might be sucked into the vanos chain. Say you hit a big pothole and shim pops up off the pan and into the chain. I have to think that could cause a catastrophic failure.

Of course, most of the time the shim would just bounce off and fall back down. My luck is that it would get caught in the chain though.
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      10-24-2013, 02:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfishZ4M View Post
All these rod bearing threads lately are making me nervous. Before I bought the car the general consensus was that the later s54 was largely trouble free. Now I'm not so sure. I don't rev into the 7k range, I only drive around town normally and shifting at maybe 4k max. I hope I'm safe. Is this mostly an issue with cars that are tracked or drivers that are constantly ragging on them?
In my opinion, if you are doing an oil analysis every oil change (7k or less) then do not worry about it until the analysis comes back with lead rising above, let say, 20ppm, then start to budget a new set of rod bearings.
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      11-02-2013, 12:19 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
... drop a shim into the oil pan ...
I stuff paper towels into every possible gap so I don't drop anything in.
I opened it up today for a valve adjustment, and guess what I found.

A paper towel.

I don't even know why I had it stuffed in that location
Neatly folded into a small square and stuffed next to #1 intake front valve spring.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can remove the Vanos without losing the broken piece of the exhaust hub tab.

Then I'll see if I can remember to take out all of the paper towels.
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      11-02-2013, 07:02 AM   #36
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I just did not see the one opening that the shim fell through. Live and learn. It was interesting to say the least to drop the front chassis crossmember and move all the interference out of the way to drop the oil pan. Now having done this, I am certain I could replace my own rod bearings if needed again...
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      11-02-2013, 12:45 PM   #37
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It was reported somewhere that TWS measures at a 50w under operating temperature. I have Redline 10w60 in the car at the moment.
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      11-02-2013, 02:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caddyshk View Post
It was reported somewhere that TWS measures at a 50w under operating temperature.
I have read that also. I also looked at MANY oil analysis sheets that members have posted on the many forums. Those sheets also say that TWS 10W60 shears down to a 50 weight. I have also read that it does viscosity change in the first 50-100 miles, but have no data to back that up.

I still like then data sheet numbers on Redline 15W50 better than TWS and that is one, but not the only reason I use it.
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      11-11-2013, 02:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Well, I use Redline 15W50. The engine runs cooler and for a side benefit I get 1-1.8 MPG better gas mileage on the highway.

I just got done pulling the oil pan to retrieve a valve shim. I also pulled an oil sample at the same time. This will be the first oil sample since I had my rod bearings changed 4000 miles ago... This starts the new baseline and time will tell.. I had nine track days on this oil.
I find this intriguing and seems very logical to increase flow with the 50 weight.

Was just wondering about the 15w choice and wondered what the thought was here vs going to the Redline 5w50.
Would the 5w give us a quicker & better flow on the warm up cycle?
...but is it more likely to shear down than the 15?
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      11-11-2013, 04:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
I find this intriguing and seems very logical to increase flow with the 50 weight.

Was just wondering about the 15w choice and wondered what the thought was here vs going to the Redline 5w50.
Would the 5w give us a quicker & better flow on the warm up cycle?
...but is it more likely to shear down than the 15?
You are partially correct.

A 5W50 viscosity motor oil would give you better flow in very cold temperatures over a 15W50 viscosity oil. What you have to do is look at the cold starting temperatures in your area. Are they in the teens? If so, a 5W would be better. If they seldom go below 30F, 15W would be ok.

A 5W has it's pour point specified down to -30C. A 15W pour point is specified down to -15C. I think a 15W would be ok down to zero.

Once your engine is at operating temperature, the oil is a 50 viscosity and so it will shear like a 50 (depending on it's manufacturer) so comparing a 5W50 to 15W50 for shear at operating temps is moot.

I always start my engine, put it in neutral and let it idle for a minute or maybe two. I put on my seat belt, adjust the seats, mirror etc.. This ensures the oil is flowing to ALL parts of the engine. I never just start the car and drive off.
I also never go above 4K RPM until the engine oil temperature gauge hits 180'. The colder the engine is, the easier I drive until it starts to generate some oil temperature.

Last edited by Shipkiller; 11-11-2013 at 04:44 PM..
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      11-11-2013, 04:44 PM   #41
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      11-14-2013, 05:51 AM   #42
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After my second set of rod bearing replacement, I switched to Motul 300V Competition 15w50. This was recommended by RRT as they think it may help with rod bearing wear and let engine run a bit cooler.

I am at 87,000+ miles on the Z4MC with close to 100 track days on the car. She still feels as solid as the day I picked her up in Oct of 2007.
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      11-14-2013, 07:24 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Well, I use Redline 15W50. The engine runs cooler and for a side benefit I get 1-1.8 MPG better gas mileage on the highway.

I just got done pulling the oil pan to retrieve a valve shim. I also pulled an oil sample at the same time. This will be the first oil sample since I had my rod bearings changed 4000 miles ago... This starts the new baseline and time will tell.. I had nine track days on this oil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
You are partially correct.

A 5W50 viscosity motor oil would give you better flow in very cold temperatures over a 15W50 viscosity oil. What you have to do is look at the cold starting temperatures in your area. Are they in the teens? If so, a 5W would be better. If they seldom go below 30F, 15W would be ok.

A 5W has it's pour point specified down to -30C. A 15W pour point is specified down to -15C. I think a 15W would be ok down to zero.

Once your engine is at operating temperature, the oil is a 50 viscosity and so it will shear like a 50 (depending on it's manufacturer) so comparing a 5W50 to 15W50 for shear at operating temps is moot.

I always start my engine, put it in neutral and let it idle for a minute or maybe two. I put on my seat belt, adjust the seats, mirror etc.. This ensures the oil is flowing to ALL parts of the engine. I never just start the car and drive off.
I also never go above 4K RPM until the engine oil temperature gauge hits 180'. The colder the engine is, the easier I drive until it starts to generate some oil temperature.
At what point is 15W50 better than 5W50 when it comes to adequate lubrication? From your second response above, best I can tell is the 5W50 may not be needed but why wouldn't you prefer it?

Also, why did you go with Redline 15W50 over the Redline 10W60? Seems like 10W60 would be the normal choice, any data to back up 15W50? You said lower operating temperature but wasn't this at the same time of changing weights and brands of oil? Just curious.

Some tiny amount better mpg makes no difference to me compared to a little less bearing wear.
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      11-14-2013, 08:04 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
At what point is 15W50 better than 5W50 when it comes to adequate lubrication? From your second response above, best I can tell is the 5W50 may not be needed but why wouldn't you prefer it?

Also, why did you go with Redline 15W50 over the Redline 10W60? Seems like 10W60 would be the normal choice, any data to back up 15W50? You said lower operating temperature but wasn't this at the same time of changing weights and brands of oil? Just curious.

Some tiny amount better mpg makes no difference to me compared to a little less bearing wear.
Probably only at startup on a cold day. Otherwise they are very similar. As you probably read above some are getting the 15W50 recommendation from engine repair folks when bearings are replaced. Not sure why it is really better than 10W60, but this is the recommendation.
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