Liqui Moly/Redline instead of Castrol

[mshanno1]

Does anyone recommend either of these two oils for the 3.2. I can get 5L of either one for ~$35, which would make frequent oil changes a little more bearable.

Is the oil industry mostly marketing, or are there really differences between different brands of synthetic?

[TexasZed4MC]

I'll give my 2 cents. I have used Reline for over 6 years now. I started using it with the E30 M3. The S14 engine was GREAT on it. lees engine noise at startup and the valves need adjusting less. After I built the 2.5 engine for it, I again put Reline in the car and its was flawless. Many other E30 M3 guys always commented how smoth and quiet the engine ran. After I sold that to get the Z4M Coupe, at the next oil change I switched it to Redline also. I am friend with the race director for the Classic BMW dealership Motorsport program. They have raced a Z4 for the past 5 years and never had a major engine problem with it. He HIGHLY recommended it to me. I undersatnd why now.

[mfanatic325]

I'm no expert but even though it's most likely just marketing, I wouldn't say for sure that the Castrol stuff has no difference over any of the other 10w60s out there. With that said, if frequent oil changes are done, I'd be willing to bet that if there were any true profound differences in quality of oil, the effects will not show. After all, any oil will break down, especially with heat. And I don't think any oil is truly greater than any other. Going with the Castrol stuff is pretty much for extra peace of mind lol.

[mhughett]

This issue has been beat to death on other M forums. Some are so fanatical about sticking with the TWS that they basically tell people that they are foolish to consider anything else. They talk about how it was developed specifically with these cars in mind and that it's constantly being tweaked to benefit new M cars as well. I'm personally using the LiquiMoly in my car and have been running it since May. No issues and no oil consumption at all (same as TWS). Based on the research I did before I bought it, I would also feel comfortable taking the car on the track with this oil as well. I think BMW is taking advantage of its near-monopoly that it has on the M cars oil requirement, since there are so few alternatives out there. Many dealers are charging upwards of $16/liter for this oil. Crazy.

[kennyfrc]

I am going to try redline on my next oil change and run a UOA on it at 4K miles to see how it does. Redline has the highest 100C viscosity of any 10W-60 oil so it may reduce bearing wear on cars that see track time. UOA will telll the story!

I am outside warranty and will rather than drinking the TWS Kool-Aid will select the oil that results in the lowest wear numbers as indicated by UOA.

[mfanatic325]

Looking forward to your test results. If more affordable oil actually performs better, I'm so ditching the ridiculously-priced Castrol TWS 10w60. $120 oil change every 6500 miles or so sucks big time

[Shipkiller]

I have made an excel spreadsheet that has all the major 10W60 brands and their parameters. I did a lot of internet researching trying to get his data so I could put it in one place. Some of the numbers were very hard to find and I had to search through many documents. But some of the numbers I was looking for just don't exist in the public domain. Hence the empty blocks.

See the attachment.

Edit: This is now an old file. Updated versions are on the website: http://www.shipkiller.com/Z4M_Specific_Oil_Page.html

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by Shipkiller

I have made an excel spreadsheet that has all the major 10W60 brands and their parameters. I did a lot of internet researching trying to get his data so I could put it in one place. Some of the numbers were very hard to find and I had to search through many documents. But some of the numbers I was looking for just don't exist in the public domain. Hence the empty blocks.

See the attachment.

Damn, this is good research. I'd like to see how Total and Elf fare as well, for some of the Euro folks. Looks like Redline has some impressive specs.

[Walkurie]

Thanks for posting this, Ship, but how does the file open? It asks for the last disk of the multi-disk set.

[Shipkiller]

It opens and extracts fine with Winzip, WinRar and 7zip....

[jmillet]

Another 10W-60 oil alternative to consider is Greddy GR-1 at $40 per six-pack with free shipping.
http://www.shopgreddy.com/gr-full-sy...ngine-oil.html
I've used both the Red Line 10W-60 and the Greddy with a 4000 mile OCI and lots of 7900 rpm track miles.

Originally Posted by mshanno1

Does anyone recommend either of these two oils for the 3.2. I can get 5L of either one for ~$35, which would make frequent oil changes a little more bearable.

Is the oil industry mostly marketing, or are there really differences between different brands of synthetic?

[pal]

See my empirical results here with Greddy 10w60

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...y+10w60&page=4

[Shipkiller]

I just updated the spreadsheet with the Greddy data I found on the net. I also add a section for gear oils. eg. SAF-XJ and the like

I will have to post this on the website since everyone finds some use for it.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Shipkiller

I just updated the spreadsheet with the Greddy data I found on the net. I also add a section for gear oils. eg. SAF-XJ and the like

I will have to post this on the website since everyone finds some use for it.

Are you considering a change????

[The HACK]

The one thing to consider when picking a motor oil to use is to see if it meets the MINIMUM SAE and ILSAC requirements as specified by the manufacturer. If, for example, the engine specifically calls for SAE SM or better, or ILSAC GF-5, I wouldn't put SAE SJ or ILSAC GF-4 unless for emergency purposes. Some of these ratings are dictated by certain seals and tolerances, or detergent packages. In addition, BMW specifies their "long life" standards like LL-01 or LL-04, if you plan on sticking to BMW's drain intervals, I would probably also make sure my motor oil meets or exceed that standard.

[kennyfrc]

Originally Posted by jmillet

Another 10W-60 oil alternative to consider is Greddy GR-1 at $40 per six-pack with free shipping.
http://www.shopgreddy.com/gr-full-sy...ngine-oil.html
I've used both the Red Line 10W-60 and the Greddy with a 4000 mile OCI and lots of 7900 rpm track miles.

Any UOA on the Redline?

If so, please post.

[Shipkiller]

I may or may not be considering a change. I will not go into that here because I don't want another 'oil fight' in the thread.

I did add a Z4M motor & gear oil page to the website so you can download the spreadsheet. When I get more info, I will update the spreadsheet.

[kennyfrc]

Originally Posted by The HACK

The one thing to consider when picking a motor oil to use is to see if it meets the MINIMUM SAE and ILSAC requirements as specified by the manufacturer. If, for example, the engine specifically calls for SAE SM or better, or ILSAC GF-5, I wouldn't put SAE SJ or ILSAC GF-4 unless for emergency purposes. Some of these ratings are dictated by certain seals and tolerances, or detergent packages. In addition, BMW specifies their "long life" standards like LL-01 or LL-04, if you plan on sticking to BMW's drain intervals, I would probably also make sure my motor oil meets or exceed that standard.

This may come as a surprise but, in most cases API SM/ILSAC GF-5 offer less protection than older spec oils!

An oil carrying an SM rating has very low ZDDP as its primary goal is cat protection then, fuel economy. I find the lowest wear numbers come from using a diesel rated 15W-40(High ZDDP) in both my truck and my wifes car that spec a 5W-30. I've been buying Rotella at Wal-Mart for $12.50 gallon and get lower wear numbers on UOA than $10+ quart synthetic.

My point is that it's the oils chemistry that that matters more than anything else. The engine in my M is too new(still wearing in) to be able to get accurate results from experimenting. My last oil change at 16K was with TWS, I will probably try redline next then lubromoly. No matter which one I use, I will add ZDDP using Redline break in additive.

Castrol TWS is an outstanding product but, has very low ZDDP of about 600-800PPM. That's REALLY low for an 8K RPM engien with a solid valvetrain.

YMMV :

[Finnegan]

Another great discussion.

IDK, but given the engine design, the phosphorus and zinc levels of "modern" oils are a bit concerning. I'm more concerned with engine wear than impact on the cats. Heck, while expensive to replace, still cheaper than an engine overhaul or new engine.

Thoughts about adding something like ZDDPlus to bump up the zinc and phosphorus levels to a more reasonable level for the S54?

[TexasZed4MC]

The redline always did a fantastic job on protecting the fragile main bearing in the s14. Probably one of the easiest BMW engines to spin a main bearing on. I ran at least 10 DE's and 24 Autocross' on the E30 M3 S14 and they never blinked, like I said my experience and 2 cents.

[kennyfrc]

I have been using "Redline Engine Oil Break In Additive" since 5K miles on my M to supplement ZDDP. However, it takes about 4 oil changes for wear metals to stabilize from "Break In". That said, I should be able to tell on future changes if my trends are better than average. i'm looking for numbers that are consistently lower than Blackstone's universal averages for street use contrasted against PAL's results for track use. This method should test whether or not lower wear can be achieved with an oil of different chemistry.

My oil changes will be at 4K intervals or up to 2 track days. I would encourage anyone with a history of UOA willing to experiment to try the same. I think the worst thing that can happen is you find that cheaper oils like Redline or Lubromoly perform as well or better than TWS.

[kennyfrc]

Originally Posted by TexasZed4MC

The redline always did a fantastic job on protecting the fragile main bearing in the s14. Probably one of the easiest BMW engines to spin a main bearing on. I ran at least 10 DE's and 24 Autocross' on the E30 M3 S14 and they never blinked, like I said my experience and 2 cents.

I have also read/heard that some race teams running S54 powered M3 swear by Redline. Funny thing is that some BMW owners seem to hate Redline products. I have had nothing short of stellar results with them in cars that have seen track/street use.