Rogue Engineering "Race Brace"

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by pyo

At the shop getting it installed, will lose all adjustability without widening the holes. Placed a call to RE and spoke with them; they are aware of the issue but are offering no resolutions. Pretty much stated that no 2 cars are the same and the chassis will flex overtime once out of the factory. Recommended PAL's method for installation.

Since I do not track and don't plan on getting camber plates, the shop (RRT) is going to dremel out the holes a bit to retain adjustability.

Not what I had in mind when I 1st purchased this but I'm set on getting this installed on my car.

Future buyers be aware of all the potential issues!

great update, im rather dissapointed with RE's response however :-(
from that i can definitely say ill stock with the o.e Bar HOWEVER i am thinking about talking it to a specialist and having them make some tabs to connect it to the firewall like the R.e brace.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by pyo

At the shop getting it installed, will lose all adjustability without widening the holes. Placed a call to RE and spoke with them; they are aware of the issue but are offering no resolutions. Pretty much stated that no 2 cars are the same and the chassis will flex overtime once out of the factory. Recommended PAL's method for installation.

Since I do not track and don't plan on getting camber plates, the shop (RRT) is going to dremel out the holes a bit to retain adjustability.

Not what I had in mind when I 1st purchased this but I'm set on getting this installed on my car.

Future buyers be aware of all the potential issues!

Thank you for giving them a call and for the update. I doubt I will call since it's unlikely to get a better result and just put them more on the defensive. I don't have an issue per se with needing to customize the install a bit, or use the "Pal Method" for install. I simply wish I'd known that up front and was prepared for the install--expectations properly set wouldn't have left me with a lot of initial frustration.

I'm going to try and balance my initial frustration and a more involved install with the fact that they are one of the few companies that have made the effort to create something for the Z4, and Z4M. I commend their willingness to take up this project a unique product, and deliver something functional and rather innovative (firewall tabs, which address a known Z4M weakness). "Try" being the key word here, because I'm still frustrated and disappointed.

Pyo, I'm looking forward to seeing shots of your custom install. I assume the shop is going to Dremel out slots that mirror those on the shock tower? That would seem to be the way to approach it for those who do not have or want to add camber plates.

Beedub--good idea re: the OEM piece. Let us know how that goes.

[pal]

When I spoke to them I pretty much got the same level of "creative" responses. If I had known this install issue and losing adjustability I would have not bought the bar.

Now that I have it, I need/want to make it work so its easy to take on and off for quick access to plugs and coils while at the track. Will mess with this over the winter.

Pyo- Please post up details of RRTs changes/customizations so we have some ideas to work with.

[pyo]

Just got back from the shop. Here are the pics. Basically what RRT told me was that the base plate for the strut bar were incorrectly welded on to the bar itself causing all the misalignments. All 8 holes were dremeled larger to make it fit. It also looks like the camber pins were pushed down.





If anyone wants more pics, request and I will try my best to fufill

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by pyo

Just got back from the shop. Here are the pics. Basically what RRT told me was that the base plate for the strut bar were incorrectly welded on to the bar itself causing all the misalignments. All 8 holes were dremeled larger to make it fit. It also looks like the camber pins were pushed down.

If anyone wants more pics, request and I will try my best to fufill

A manufacturing defect makes more more sense to me than it being due to "no two cars are the same" and "chassis flex" (on one of the stiffest chassis ever on a street car). Where are we now, zero for 4 or zero for 5 on the installs? Also, if the "flex and different" story were to be believed, I'd expect the base plate would never sit flush car to car, and I don't think we're seeing that (which makes it more likely the story less credible).

Now on the the next question of whether that misalignment can cause other issues, such as uneven stress, etc.

Yes, I'm trying very hard here not to be frustrated and disappointed. It also makes me appreciate the stand-up and excellent service DKF provided awhile back, when a manufacturing defect caused the exhaust hangers to not fit correctly. It was corrected almost immediately and with no hassle.

[pal]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

A manufacturing defect makes more more sense to me than it being due to "no two cars are the same" and "chassis flex" (on one of the stiffest chassis ever on a street car). Where are we now, zero for 4 or zero for 5 on the installs? Also, if the "flex and different" story were to be believed, I'd expect the base plate would never sit flush car to car, and I don't think we're seeing that (which makes it more likely the story less credible).

Now on the the next question of whether that misalignment can cause other issues, such as uneven stress, etc.

My first thought after fiddling for an hour was manufacturing defect. Then just to eliminate that thought I tried by lowering the shocks and it lines up at uneven places in the holes on the bar's base plates and it happens to be at the innermost location of the shock towers. This to me indicates a manufacturing flaw with the location of the holes and nothing more.

As for the slight preload/angle on the base plates, while this can be construed as a manufacturing error as well, it may not be such a bad thing. I could simply press down on the base plate with one hand and hand tighten the nuts. This preload may help keep the nuts from backing out due to vibration. I dont like the preload but don't think its an issue.

Overall, I have been around the modding block many times over the last 10-12 years to not expect any after sales service for 9 out of 10 aftermarket companies. My expectations are low. The more serious or big the mod, the more I research the company and their reputation. And I agree that chassis flex or every car is different are a load of you know what

pyo- If its not too much trouble, it would be super useful to see pictures of your base plates with the nuts off. This will let us all see RRT's dremeling work sonwe can do the same.

[Beedub]

PYO.... just noticed your firewall braces are ONTOP of the SB tabs, im pretty sure this isnt what you want and will have a negative effect on the LINKING of the three pieces, pretty certain this item was designed to fit ONtop of the Firewall braces. They way you have it may create a levering effect.

interesting what your guys said..... i think they pretty much nailed it.....

Finn.... GREAT shout on the DKF mess up... they way they handled things At their own cost was imo awesome.... i DO and WOULD expect the same of RE....

[pyo]

Beedub thanks for pointing that out. I dont think they returned the instructions to me, wonder if it is something I can fix. I will call them tomorrow morning and find out.

At the moment since I don't have socket tools
I can't undo the nuts. Can someone scan a copy of their instructions to me?

[Finnegan]

Pal, thanks for the input on the preload.

Pyo, I'll second Pal's request to see the Dremel work by taking some shots without the nuts. That would be really helpful.

Also, Beedub did spot an issue. IIRC, the install calls for the stock brace to be on the bottom, then three washers, then the race brace table, then the nut. Hopefully an easy fix with the Dremeled holes!

And yes, DKF set a really high bar by being accountable and making it right. As Pal says, that's uncommon. I hope we see more from DKF.

Edit: I'll scan them in tonight. PM me your email address. (I'm PDT, so it will be the wee hours your time.)

[pyo]

Finnegan: PM sent.

[Twisted Six]

I've watched this thread somewhat closely in the hopes it would turn out well for all.
Building a multi-point brace such as this to fit contact points which can vary is scary enough as it is. Committing to building the set-up jig would be even AS scary honestly.
One or two degrees off on the disc rotation and havoc ensues.Perhaps on their future model they can take templates from all of your final install Dremeling and make their holes to suit in diameter and or slotting.
We have a passion for a car which is seldom supported by engineering in the aftermarket. Possibly for more than just our slight numbers sometimes. Just saying............
Why not pitch in and aid in this cool track ready bar ?!

[pyo]

Received this reply from RRT concerning the firewall brace

Originally Posted by RRT

It’s all bolted together in one unit now. And with the grinding we had to do to get it to fit, the flat spot of the firewall brace acts like a fender washer to secure the strut brace. I would leave it the way it is.

I didn't feel any negative effects when I drove it thru the twisties on the way back. Actually, it felt much better. I'm inclined to leave it the way it is based on the recommendation of RRT. They do build full on bmw race cars so I am confident they know what they are talking about.

[pal]

pyo - look forward to the pictures if you can get them. That being said, I think you will need to take the brace off at least once as Beedub and Finnegan noted - your firewall brace needs to sit under the RE brace and the space filled with 3 washers supplied by RE. There is a 2 fold issue with your setup - firstly the OE firewall brace is not sitting as designed by BMW and secondly the RE brace is not sitting as designed by them.

Now if RRT bent the RE tab to be more flush with the factory mounting point then you may be fine leaving it as-is.

See my picture below and note how the RE lip is spaced away from the firewall brace -

[pyo]

here is what mine looks like

[pal]

Looks like they bent the RE lip some to line it up parallel to the stock mounting point and used washers to prevent preload- that is fine. I wonder if they modified the stock firewall brace some or just added some preload there?? Looking at the setup, it looks like RRT customized it so I would leave it alone.

The only PITA here is that you will have to take the firewall braces off every time you need to remove the strut brace.

[Twisted Six]

Originally Posted by pal

Looks like they bent the RE lip some to line it up parallel to the stock mounting point and used washers to prevent preload- that is fine. I wonder if they modified the stock firewall brace some or just added some preload there?? Looking at the setup, it looks like RRT customized it so I would leave it alone.

The only PITA here is that you will have to take the firewall braces off every time you need to remove the strut brace.

RE should design that tab to be water-jet cut as one level and one piece for the circle/disc to avoid this washer band-aid IMHO. Would have saved them welding and an additional part as well.

[Beedub]

its not a good way to do that IMO as every brace removal just means the firewall braces need to be disturbed as well...

complete random question but slightly related..... with the front top mount nuts removed so the top mount is loose with the car on the floor can you easily move the suspension position adjusting camber or does the car need to be lifted????

EDIT; dont worry... just tried it.. need to the lift the bitch, lol!! Another job for another day i guess.... some further tweaks need to be done on the camber plates.

[Twisted Six]

Originally Posted by Beedub

its not a good way to do that IMO as every brace removal just means the firewall braces need to be disturbed as well...

Am I missing something ? The tab is currently welded. Having it designed into one piece from water-jet/plasma....it is still connected....as in one mass.

Or are you referring to the overall design requiring firewall brace tampering ?

Just to be clear, I'm referencing the tower circle that the strut mounts too.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by Twisted Six

Am I missing something ? The tab is currently welded. Having it designed into one piece from water-jet/plasma....it is still connected....as in one mass.

Or are you referring to the overall design requiring firewall brace tampering ?

Just to be clear, I'm referencing the tower circle that the strut mounts too.

im referring to the fact that to remove his brace requires him to remove the firewall braces due to them being bolted on top of the brace tabs, think were getting our wires crossed slightly......

its a great piece but im more than content with the stock bar, i would however like to add some firewall connectors to the stock brace, im currently mocking these up and will remove the brace shortly to carry this out.

[Twisted Six]

Originally Posted by Beedub

im referring to the fact that to remove his brace requires him to remove the firewall braces due to them being bolted on top of the brace tabs, think were getting our wires crossed slightly......

its a great piece but im more than content with the stock bar, i would however like to add some firewall connectors to the stock brace, im currently mocking these up and will remove the brace shortly to carry this out.

Ahhh, Understood.

[Beedub]

anyone else got theirs and installed????? would love some more feedback on this item!!

[pal]

I have a track weekend at Watkins Glen next weekend and I wanted to have access to plugs and coils in case some troubleshooting is needed. So I pulled off the RE brace and removed the black plastic cover and re-installed the brace.

Good News : I am happy to report that there is more than enough space to remove the coils and spark plugs with the brace in place.

Somewhat good news : The brace went back on just a tiny bit easier though I still used the process of raising the front end to lower the studs to line everything up. It almost seems like the brace "molds" itself to the car the longer it sits there. I believe that some strategic use of the dremel/grinding attachment should allow the brace to almost slip on/off the car - winter project for when I do the valve adjustment.

Easy access to each coil and plug


Tons of clearance