|
|
SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS! |
Post Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
06-02-2015, 06:23 PM | #1 |
Lieutenant
129
Rep 407
Posts |
How bulletproof is the s54?
Hey fellaZ,
It's coming close to a year now I've been contemplating some sort of FI on my M. Nowhere near execution but just wanna know how high I can bring my hopes up for the future. Supercharger is the easy, cheap, and especially safe route to go with. But that's just not enough racecar for me. That leaves only one to shed the light and that's a turbo build. I know I know, people tried it and nearly all of them went south. But that's why I'm posting this thread. There are so many turbo s54 swapped e30's, e46's, e36's, why can't the Z4's get in the game? One thing that freaks me out the most is the very core that keeps these German horses on crack, the block. I've seen and heard people/shops passing on doing a FI build because the block just can't handle it. It either warps or one case I've heard the cylinder walls get cracked? (often times when it's bored out), which I think is complete BS but none the less, we hear more of those stories than success stories. Didn't know to either laugh or cry. To what extent can one push an s54 to warp the block? This is the only thing keeping me on the fence. Is doing a turbo build reasonable? Reliable? Or even possible for that matter? Before you reply, here's what I have planned for if the build moves forward: - Over build the motor. Pretty much a given considering our rod bearings and VANOS bolts have a life span shorter than Gordon Ramsay's temper. - ECU. This is one of the top reasons we see s54's fail; just decides to fry. Standalone is a must. - Water/Meth. Because we don't want the engine to be as hot as Caitlyn Jenner. Clearly doesn't end well. Or just get a supercharger... lol |
06-02-2015, 06:44 PM | #2 |
#dubspec
6337
Rep 5,201
Posts |
I don't know what you are willing to spend or how much time and patience you have reserved, but i drove a vf 570 equipped z4m with a custom built rear diff and cams, custom tune and injectors....and it was more than enough power. Any more and you will have a hard time putting it down and making it useful imo
__________________
LCI ///F80 M3 Individual Atlantis Metallic / Black Full / Carbon Cermics / 6MT
MPE / M Performance & Carbon package / KW v3 / 20" HRE R101LW / 20" HRE 527s / Michelin PSS / 20% tint / 3d Design / Streckenn splitters / OEM GTS hood / EAS Carbon seatbacks / Carbon RKP sideskirt / Bootmod3 / M Performance Tri color alcantara / AWE S Flow instagram: @ dubsesd |
Appreciate
0
|
06-02-2015, 07:35 PM | #3 | |
Colonel
352
Rep 2,176
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-02-2015, 07:45 PM | #4 |
Colonel
479
Rep 2,782
Posts
Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles
|
Have you ever driven a supercharged Z4M (serious question)? Traction is a problem until 3rd or 4th gear, depending on tires and outside air temps.
There is no issue pushing the S54 to 500+ whp. These engines are fuel quality limited up to a point. The issue isn't even in getting a stand alone to work. It's getting all the other gadgets to work with a stand alone. Mike Essa's drift car was an S54 turbo swapped into a 2.5i. Of course it wasn't street legal, and hardly any Z4 mechanicals were left. But it worked for what he wanted it to do. To have a car like that on the street... well, it's a waste of money, as it ditches a lot of the OEM BMWness that makes these cars special. Have you ever owned a forced induction vehicle? Was it heavily modified? I'm of the opinion that reliability is the most important aspect, and I would gladly leave 50 horsepower for a 100% turn key solution that had been extensively tested and behaved like stock. I've been on both ends - sold a kit with all kinds of bugs, and bought cars/kits that were totally sorted. After a while, having the car stall in the cold, act funky under certain conditions, throw lean/rich codes, etc. burns you out, and you start to question why you aren't being paid for your time or use of your vehicle as a test car. A turbo kit would be nice, but the price of entry just isn't worth it IMHO.
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-02-2015, 09:30 PM | #5 |
enthusiast
48
Rep 1,695
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 02:19 AM | #6 | ||
Dog Listener
707
Rep 7,850
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 05:55 AM | #7 |
Major General
423
Rep 5,329
Posts |
either way i still think the road bearings need to be upgrade on ANY FI car... As soon as i get the funds together i will be doing this , my car only has 12k so I'm not worried YET... but its something that needs doing as maintenance imo, especially if you drive the car hard, which i DO.
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com |
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 10:40 AM | #8 |
Lieutenant
129
Rep 407
Posts |
Thank you guys for your reply I really appreciate it.
Looks like the biggest challenge is going to be the electronics and the C word... Cost. Let's not mention the C word right now it brings chills down my spine just thinking about it. Electronics is probably the hardest part in these types of builds. Not to mention tuning afterwards which I can imagine taking a year to perfect. It's a challenge but I think that's what drives me to do it. Oh god I know this feeling right now. It's my brain telling me "the hell is wrong with you!!" and my guts whispering "cmon, just try one PSI of boost" To answer your question, Pokey, I haven't driven a supercharged z4 yet but I have driven other FI cars that break traction on 3rd and sometimes 4th gears. Stupid fast but man does that put a smile to your face and liquids in your pants. Honestly, that's kind of my goal... not really a death sentence of +1,000whp but instead projecting more than 650whp. And you're right about losing what makes these cars so unique. Which is not my intent but is something to consider before sacrificing something great like that. Thank you, didn't think of that. Beedub that's super low miles!! rod bearings should be upgraded on any s54 over 90k miles. I've seen some cars with bearings issues around the same miles my car currently has, 50k. Pretty much a given. This has been on my mind because I still have my old e39 528i just collecting dust. Never sold it because it's worth far more than $2,500 for me. Very reliable car I can daily drive. That being said, I can afford the time to put this as a long term project. And let's mention the C word again, cost would be menacing but taking it slow would help. With access to a lift, wholesalers, friends, family, and contacts being in the mechanic and body business, it gives an advantage to pull this off without pulling off an arm and a leg. Man it sucks to be in the most expensive hobby. Oh and a few things I want to touch on, how's the fuel delivery on our cars? Would the pump or injectors handle the output? And besides for the engine, I've heard we have pretty solid transmissions but it won't be necessary to upgrade anything more than a performance clutch/flywheel kit on them, correct? And finally, how's the VANOS reacting with all this? Would the bolts just give out at any given time? Last edited by UntzUntzUntz; 06-03-2015 at 02:02 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 11:28 AM | #9 |
Major General
423
Rep 5,329
Posts |
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com |
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 11:31 AM | #10 |
Major General
423
Rep 5,329
Posts |
he was clearly so close but in the end he had to admit defeat.... He went s/C which imo works on this car so well and totally suits the character of the car! It literally feels like a big motor swap, perfect.
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com |
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 01:20 PM | #11 |
Lieutenant
129
Rep 407
Posts |
Why get so close and just throw it all out the window? I just sent the guy a message. My guess is HPF was working on it around the time the company went south. HPF never finished a proper build so he switched over to a supercharged setup. That's my guess but let's wait and see what the real reason is.
In other news, I contacted a shop called Auto Talent. Some of the FI cars I've driven have taken it there. Anyone have any experience with them? They claim to have done "a few successful" turbo builds on e46 m3's. Never a Z4. But from what they were telling me they seemed pretty confident and knowledgeable in what they're doing. Specifically the electronics. Theirs a guy that knows more about s54's so when he's back in the office I'ma give a call back. |
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 03:14 PM | #12 |
#dubspec
6337
Rep 5,201
Posts |
S54 in the m3 has completely different electronics than a s54 z4m
__________________
LCI ///F80 M3 Individual Atlantis Metallic / Black Full / Carbon Cermics / 6MT
MPE / M Performance & Carbon package / KW v3 / 20" HRE R101LW / 20" HRE 527s / Michelin PSS / 20% tint / 3d Design / Streckenn splitters / OEM GTS hood / EAS Carbon seatbacks / Carbon RKP sideskirt / Bootmod3 / M Performance Tri color alcantara / AWE S Flow instagram: @ dubsesd |
Appreciate
0
|
06-03-2015, 03:40 PM | #13 | |
Colonel
479
Rep 2,782
Posts
Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles
|
Quote:
I had my AA tune done there maybe 5 years ago. They do have knowledge, but I got the impression some of the cars had been there for a while, so be prepared for that. They had Ferraris, a Ford GT, turbo Lamborghinis, a 1000+ horsepower 300ZX, etc. My Z4M was the econo car of the group. In my opinion, they can do it depending on your budget, but plan for the car to be down for more than 6 months (1-2 years is probably accurate), and the cost to be north of $30k for stock internals... even more for a built motor. I would say they are one of the few shops with the know-how. I just doubt their ability to get it back to you in a timely fashion, because a PITA Z4M isn't high on the priority list when you're fighting for shop time with modified exotics.
__________________
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 01:21 AM | #14 | |
Major General
423
Rep 5,329
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 02:48 AM | #15 |
Lieutenant
129
Rep 407
Posts |
Looks like everyone I ask goes to the same conclusion as you guys say, supercharger. It's a last resort but I'm not giving up that easily.
I think it'll be a good idea to ask Auto Talent, but wouldn't it still function close to original if I use the OEM ECU during idle period and use a piggyback ECU to control the fuel after a certain RPM? Only thing I'm not too sure about is the timing so that might be something I might have an answer tomorrow once I call them. Also if the fuel injectors and/or the fuel pump would need to be upgraded. Seems logical to me but it can never be that easy. We shall find out tomorrow. |
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 06:29 AM | #16 | |
Colonel
352
Rep 2,176
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 06:31 AM | #17 |
Colonel
352
Rep 2,176
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 04:53 PM | #18 |
Lieutenant
129
Rep 407
Posts |
You have a point gmd. All of you made great points. I'm glad I got your guys' insight before making a final decision. I was getting close to pulling the trigger. For now she's staying stock until it's time for new bearings.
Thank you once again |
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 05:17 PM | #19 | |
Lieutenant General
17498
Rep 10,667
Posts
Drives: M4 CS. Former G82, x2 F82, F80
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jacked out of my mind
|
Quote:
Even worse, I had an MR2 Turbo with a 20g pushing close to 500rwhp. That thing is a deathboat compared to the Z4M and I never had a problem. Stop being so dramatic, these are street cars after all! ;P OP, if you want to go fast, sell the Z4M and get something else. To me this car is about everything but brutal acceleration, I have no desire to make mine any quicker. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 07:08 PM | #20 | ||
Colonel
479
Rep 2,782
Posts
Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles
|
Quote:
There comes a point when more power isn't useful.
__________________
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2015, 10:05 PM | #21 | |
Lieutenant
129
Rep 407
Posts |
Quote:
The reason everyone finds traction an issue is because of the torque the supercharger puts down. In comparison with the turbo, you probably won't experience that with that as much. Maybe if someone had a turbo build they would've backed me up! But no I agree. The Z4 dominates all grounds up until you start making it faster. That's where the road ends I suppose. *starts looking for e30's and s85's* |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-05-2015, 09:56 AM | #22 | |
Colonel
479
Rep 2,782
Posts
Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles
|
Quote:
Horsepower = torque * rpm / 5252 To produce more power over time (horsepower), you can either increase the "boom" (torque) each time a cylinder fires, or increase the number of times that boom occurs (rpm). The reason turbo cars generally have more power throughout the rpm band is because they produce more torque. The S54 gets its power (and character) through its the sky high redline. For years, BMW M division shunned turbos, and opted instead to design cars to handle increased rpm rather than high torque. This requires tight tolerances and exotic materials, and reduced engine reliability (rpm is an engine killer)... but makes for a very exciting and peaky car. They finally caved when rpm couldn't be realistically increased further, yet they had to produce more power to remain relevant and competitive. The S54 was the final, maxed out, ultimate iteration of the old school M division's high rpm vision. Like most street engines, the S54 becomes less efficient the higher you rev it (torque falls off as rpm increases, because the engine isn't able to fully replace the used air in a cylinder with fresh air). A centrifugal supercharger adds torque back where it normally would start to fall off. It keeps with the character of the car. The traits that make it spectacular aren't lost. The reason I think that Frankensteining the car into something it wasn't intended to be (like a 60-130 mph record holder) is a bad idea, is because you can get there so much cheaper with another platform, and you would have to give up most of what makes this car so awesome. It's like taking a guy who successfully competed in American Ninja Warrior, and putting him on a workout plan to bench 4 plates. He could get there with a lot of time and effort... but why? He certainly wouldn't be lean and agile enough to do what he used to do (which very few others could do). Once you swap to a clutch that can handle the torque, put on some massive tires and do suspension/body work to handle the power, and throw in some turbo lag... try and do an autocross. I'm not saying that a 650 whp car isn't fun, but I think there are better ways to get there. In this car, a lot of what you're paying for are the things other cars struggle to achieve.
__________________
|
|
Appreciate
1
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|