Michelin PSS - Star symbol or not? 19" CSL sizes

[Philly_sweden]

Hi.

According to Michelin the OEM sizes has the star symbol (BMW approved) but the 235/35/19 + 265/30/19 does NOT have the star symbol.

What do you guys with CSL dimensions have?

Thanks!

/Filip

[Huz-Z]

I've got a new set of 18 inch Michelin Pilot Super Sports in stock sizes on my new VMR 718 rims. They are a very highly rated tire with a great reputation so whether or not they are BMW approved played no part whatsoever in my decision to buy them. However, I'll take a look for you when I get home to see if mine have this star.

[Philly_sweden]

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

I've got a new set of 18 inch Michelin Pilot Super Sports in stock sizes on my new VMR 718 rims. They are a very highly rated tire with a great reputation so whether or not they are BMW approved played no part whatsoever in my decision to buy them. However, I'll take a look for you when I get home to see if mine have this star.

My OEM 18" Michelin PSS have the star but my question is if the 19" are marked or not

Thank you anyway

[Huz-Z]

I think you may be right - I popped out on Tire Rack's web site during coffee break and selected my tires in stock sizes and the star is visible in the image that appears for my tire sizes. I will check my tires at home but I expect that as they are OEM size, they will have the star.

[Huz-Z]

So I guess I'll be looking for - wait for it - a Star in the east.

[The HACK]

I preface this by saying I worked in the tire industry briefly.

Normally, OEs exert a tremendous amount of pressure on their suppliers for the smallest margin. What typically happens, is when a supplier has a strong "branded" product, that OE wants to take full advantage of, but do not want to pay the associated prices for the cost to build and market such a valuable product line, they'll ask the suppliers to provide those tires en-bulk using said brand and product name, but at a significantly discounted price. So what the tire manufacturers usually do, is cut a few corners, use a slightly different formulation, skip a few QA steps to meet the OE's specifications for the tire, and still allow the OE to claim that their car came with Brand Name Model Number tires.

But they can't really mix the two stocks, because the OE tires are inferior to the actual tires that they sell to the public, the tires that they sell at a higher margin and have spent all that time and money in promoting and marketing. So they put a small marking on the mold, and give it a different part number. From the outside they appear identical, and the idea here is, a vast majority of consumers go to the tire store and ask for what they've got on their car anyway, so even though the OE tires are inferior, they can turn around and make a bigger margin on them in the aftermarket if the consumer asks for and buys the same OE tires, or the same exact tires without the OE "branding" mark. In the mean time they'll tell the public that these OE branded tires are design specifically to "work with their special vehicle" and at the end of the day, the OE makes out by being able to put these so-called higher-end, highly valued branded tires on their cars, and the tire companies get a boost in sales from users who typically just replace with like brand/model when time comes to replace.

NEVER buy the OE branded tires to replace when the same model tire exist without the OE brand. The non-OE tires are usually superior. Case in point, the OE ContiSportContact IIs on our MZ4 Coupe. Same private branded tire as what came on the E46 M3. All the M3 guys (as well as most MZ4 Coupe 1st owners) complained that the tires don't last (they're burnt out by about 10,000 miles) and that they grip like sh*t, while the reviews of the non OE branded ContiSportContact II got rave reviews from most of its buyers on TireRack and held its own against Goodyear, Dunlops, and Pirelli's Max Summer Tires in TireRack's own instrumented test.

[Daemonblitz]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I preface this by saying I worked in the tire industry briefly.

Normally, OEs exert a tremendous amount of pressure on their suppliers for the smallest margin. What typically happens, is when a supplier has a strong "branded" product, that OE wants to take full advantage of, but do not want to pay the associated prices for the cost to build and market such a valuable product line, they'll ask the suppliers to provide those tires en-bulk using said brand and product name, but at a significantly discounted price. So what the tire manufacturers usually do, is cut a few corners, use a slightly different formulation, skip a few QA steps to meet the OE's specifications for the tire, and still allow the OE to claim that their car came with Brand Name Model Number tires.

But they can't really mix the two stocks, because the OE tires are inferior to the actual tires that they sell to the public, the tires that they sell at a higher margin and have spent all that time and money in promoting and marketing. So they put a small marking on the mold, and give it a different part number. From the outside they appear identical, and the idea here is, a vast majority of consumers go to the tire store and ask for what they've got on their car anyway, so even though the OE tires are inferior, they can turn around and make a bigger margin on them in the aftermarket if the consumer asks for and buys the same OE tires, or the same exact tires without the OE "branding" mark. In the mean time they'll tell the public that these OE branded tires are design specifically to "work with their special vehicle" and at the end of the day, the OE makes out by being able to put these so-called higher-end, highly valued branded tires on their cars, and the tire companies get a boost in sales from users who typically just replace with like brand/model when time comes to replace.

NEVER buy the OE branded tires to replace when the same model tire exist without the OE brand. The non-OE tires are usually superior. Case in point, the OE ContiSportContact IIs on our MZ4 Coupe. Same private branded tire as what came on the E46 M3. All the M3 guys (as well as most MZ4 Coupe 1st owners) complained that the tires don't last (they're burnt out by about 10,000 miles) and that they grip like sh*t, while the reviews of the non OE branded ContiSportContact II got rave reviews from most of its buyers on TireRack and held its own against Goodyear, Dunlops, and Pirelli's Max Summer Tires in TireRack's own instrumented test.

Well said.

Another misconception about this "Star Approval" rating is that it's for the tire brand/model, when in fact it is only given to the tire in that particular size (or 2 sizes if staggered).

[Huz-Z]

Okay this is confusing.

I bought a set of Michelin PSS tires in original size from Tire Rack back in June or July. If they turn out to have this star - are you saying that they are somehow inferior to a non-OEM size Michelin PSS?

[The HACK]

Yes.

[Philly_sweden]

So are they the exact same tire with or without the star? If so, are Michelin fooling their customers?

[Daemonblitz]

Originally Posted by Philly_sweden

So are they the exact same tire with or without the star? If so, are Michelin fooling their customers?

No, we are saying that star "approved" is inferior.

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by Philly_sweden

So are they the exact same tire with or without the star? If so, are Michelin fooling their customers?

Actually what he said was the tires with the star (OE) are inferior to the non star version of the tire. You should be looking for the "plain" version....

I learned something new today.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by Philly_sweden

So are they the exact same tire with or without the star? If so, are Michelin fooling their customers?

As I understand Hack, if your tires have a star they are a cheaper and poorer performing version of the tire, compared to the tire you would buy elsewhere.

I just checked my tires and I'm delighted to report that they DO NOT have a star on them. So it looks like I have the proper version tires, or the Real McCoy.

Thanks Hack!!

[ZeD4Mr]

It makes total sense. Love learning new things. Thanks for sharing the info.

[Vanne]

Thanks Hack! Learned something new here too.

[elerner61]

Can someone post a picture of a sidewall with a star? I surfed for one but could not find. Thx!

[Philly_sweden]

Without



With

[Huz-Z]

Ya know, I think if I were in the market for a new car and discovered it had these apparently sub-par OEM tires, I'd be pretty insistent that the dealer chuck 'em in the rubbish bin and install a proper set.

[rockstar93]

While I knew there were unique tires made for OE applications (with cost the number 1 concern), I had no idea these made there way into the replacement tire market and caused such issues.

As I work very closely with tires in my job I looked into it a bit further and was quite surprised. Using 275/35R19 PSS tires as an example, there's three different product codes - a BMW OE fitment, a Lexus OE fitment (with a lower load rating), and one without OE fitments.

Interesting to note that while the size, load/speed rating, treadwear, and price are all the same, the weight it different. 25.88lbs for the BMW, 27.49 for the non-OE, and 27.62 for the Lexus.

[XMetal]

Originally Posted by rockstar93

Interesting to note that while the size, load/speed rating, treadwear, and price are all the same, the weight it different. 25.88lbs for the BMW, 27.49 for the non-OE, and 27.62 for the Lexus.

This further proves that not only are there QA differences, but construction as well.

I need to pay closer attention to the next tire purchase.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I preface this by saying I worked in the tire industry briefly.

Normally, OEs exert a tremendous amount of pressure on their suppliers for the smallest margin. What typically happens, is when a supplier has a strong "branded" product, that OE wants to take full advantage of, but do not want to pay the associated prices for the cost to build and market such a valuable product line, they'll ask the suppliers to provide those tires en-bulk using said brand and product name, but at a significantly discounted price. So what the tire manufacturers usually do, is cut a few corners, use a slightly different formulation, skip a few QA steps to meet the OE's specifications for the tire, and still allow the OE to claim that their car came with Brand Name Model Number tires.

But they can't really mix the two stocks, because the OE tires are inferior to the actual tires that they sell to the public, the tires that they sell at a higher margin and have spent all that time and money in promoting and marketing. So they put a small marking on the mold, and give it a different part number. From the outside they appear identical, and the idea here is, a vast majority of consumers go to the tire store and ask for what they've got on their car anyway, so even though the OE tires are inferior, they can turn around and make a bigger margin on them in the aftermarket if the consumer asks for and buys the same OE tires, or the same exact tires without the OE "branding" mark. In the mean time they'll tell the public that these OE branded tires are design specifically to "work with their special vehicle" and at the end of the day, the OE makes out by being able to put these so-called higher-end, highly valued branded tires on their cars, and the tire companies get a boost in sales from users who typically just replace with like brand/model when time comes to replace.

NEVER buy the OE branded tires to replace when the same model tire exist without the OE brand. The non-OE tires are usually superior. Case in point, the OE ContiSportContact IIs on our MZ4 Coupe. Same private branded tire as what came on the E46 M3. All the M3 guys (as well as most MZ4 Coupe 1st owners) complained that the tires don't last (they're burnt out by about 10,000 miles) and that they grip like sh*t, while the reviews of the non OE branded ContiSportContact II got rave reviews from most of its buyers on TireRack and held its own against Goodyear, Dunlops, and Pirelli's Max Summer Tires in TireRack's own instrumented test.

This interesting. What QA steps does the tire manufacturer skip? Does the tire manufacturer use the same molds for the same tire that is made for the OE and the one sold to the public? Also, would not the re-engineering and regression testing of the "OE" rubber compound outweigh any costs in savings by using a different compound for the consumer-sold tire?

[Philly_sweden]

Just bought new tires without the star