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      03-19-2013, 04:08 PM   #1
philjw
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Hankook V12 vs. Michelin PSS

Hoping someone with experience on both tires can chime in. I just bought a set of Apex Arc-8 wheels (18x8.5F, 18x10R) with used V12's. The front have decent tread left but the rears should really be replaced so haven't thrown them on the car yet. For primarily street driving in warm (but potentially wet) weather only (will use stock wheels for winter) and the occasional track day, what do you think? Or feel free to suggest something different altogether... I used to have Conti DW's on my Z4MR, but hoping for something a bit more aggressive.

PSS seems like a winner, but would have to buy a set of four. V12s are a bit cheaper, but I could just buy the rears, although someone here seemed to have issues not replacing the V12s as a set?
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      03-19-2013, 04:19 PM   #2
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V12's=good-slightly above average traction in all conditions, wear decently, great price

PSS=very good, above average traction and great wear, expensive

Dunlop direzza (new ZII or star specs)- great traction, good for track days, wear fast, good price

I have had experience with those three options and imo they are each great options just depends on how you intend to use them...the direzzas are the only ones i would call significantly more aggressive than the conti DW's you had, but sacrifice wear
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      03-19-2013, 04:32 PM   #3
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+1 for PSSs
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      03-19-2013, 04:37 PM   #4
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I've got V12s and initially I felt that they were really good but as I got more miles on them they got significantly worse. They are absolutely horrible in the wet, to the level where it feels unsafe driving around on rainy days.
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      03-19-2013, 04:43 PM   #5
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I gave the V12s a run in AutoX. They were horrible. Great street tire, but just don't hold up under aggressive driving IMHO.

My car is weekend only, track, or autoX, so I went with DZIIs.
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      03-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinb View Post
I've got V12s and initially I felt that they were really good but as I got more miles on them they got significantly worse. They are absolutely horrible in the wet, to the level where it feels unsafe driving around on rainy days.
This is disconcerting to say the least, as I live in the Pacific NW where we get lots of rain. That's why I had the Conti DW's on my roadster. I had heard good things about the V12s in the wet, but maybe that's only on fresh tires? Anyone else have good/bad experience with V12s or PSS's in the rain?

By the way, this forum is amazing! Thanks for all the fast feedback!

Edit: Just read some more reviews on TireRack, and others describe the same problems with the V12s--horrendous wet performance at lower tread levels. Looks like I'm trashing the current set and getting DW or PSS.

Last edited by philjw; 03-19-2013 at 05:02 PM..
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      03-19-2013, 05:06 PM   #7
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I've had V12s on for almost 3 years now. My car is a DD and has been to 2 track days.

The Good
- Wear is remarkably good! No need to replace for quite awhile still.
- Confident in the rain. Lived in Seattle for 1.5 years with these.
- Ride is good; better than OEM Contis even on 19"
- Overall good DD street tire

The Bad
- Soft sidewall
- Low performer on track. Does not give confidence. Watch other Z4Ms pass you.

Conclusion
Wouldn't get V12 again. I'm saving up and going with Bridgestone RE-11 just because I want to perform better at track events. PSS is a fine choice if you don't need max perf.
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      03-19-2013, 05:14 PM   #8
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Having run the PSS both on the street and on the track in heavy downpours, I can say that I highly recommend that tire. I haven't ever run a tire that's been as good in all conditions as the PSS, especially in the wet – it's just amazing. Very predictable tire with good grip--not Direzza level, but damn good. And these tires have a long service life, unlike extreme summer tires.

Works decently well even in fairly low temperatures, like those below 40°, which you might encounter with rain. (Many summer type tires just go completely off below 40-50 degrees.) It's not recommended that you run them in near freezing temps, but I have done it, down to 30 (not on purpose--poor planning), and as long as they have a bit of heat they're not scary. Other summer tires get scary unsafe real fast as it gets colder. I would've been in real trouble if I tried running my NT05s at those temperatures!

As for track use, if you're up to intermediate level driver, you might be able to get away with these for a couple of track days a year. For more intensive track use you're going to want to tire that's up to that – the Direzza, GForce Rival, Rcomps. The downside with those more track capable street tires is that you're really going to need something else to use in the wet.
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      03-19-2013, 05:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRedman45 View Post
?.......

Dunlop direzza (new ZII or star specs)- great traction, good for track days, wear fast, good price
I didn't know there was a new Zii out...
Must look for reviews
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      03-19-2013, 05:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRedman45 View Post
?.......

Dunlop direzza (new ZII or star specs)- great traction, good for track days, wear fast, good price
I didn't know there was a new Zii out...
Must look for reviews
Rivals have been tested to be faster side by side on the track and autocross course.

I would wait for wet weather to come for the ZIIs. They changed their tread patterns to match the RS3 almost.

IMO if you want something that you're going to take the car to the track. The V12s and PSS are not meant for those conditions.

Both good DD tires, yes. High performance, ehhhhh
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      03-19-2013, 05:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
IMO if you want something that you're going to take the car to the track. The V12s and PSS are not meant for those conditions.

Both good DD tires, yes. High performance, ehhhhh
Understood. Really just hoping for a good street tire that can handle the wet and not be completely out of its element if I show up to the track perhaps a couple of times a year.

Also, while I've got everyone's attention, any thoughts on tire size? Prior owner was running 235/40s and 265/35s on the 18x8.5 and 18x10 wheels. I'm planning to replace with 245/40s and 275/35s. May also lower the car a bit, but seems like these would still be ok?

Last edited by philjw; 03-19-2013 at 05:54 PM..
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      03-19-2013, 06:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philjw View Post
Understood. Really just hoping for a good street tire that can handle the wet and not be completely out of its element if I show up to the track perhaps a couple of times a year.

Also, while I've got everyone's attention, any thoughts on tire size? Prior owner was running 235/40s and 265/35s on the 18x8.5 and 18x10 wheels. I'm planning to replace with 245/40s and 275/35s. May also lower the car a bit, but seems like these would still be ok?
What kind of wheels and more importantly offsets? 245/275 combo works fine with those size wheels--have it running with 8.5 ET37 and 9.5 ET22.

RE: track, are you a really advanced driver? If not (hey, that's not me either), and if you don't push too hard, I think the PSS would be fine for the occassional light and easy fun day. As Kgolf says, PSS is not really designed for that, but I don't think you want to shell out $$$ for a dedicated set of wheels/tires for 2x days at the track a year.

My advice would be to get something that is prioritized along the lines of need--and given location, that's good dry performance and very good wet performance as top priorities, track needs further down the list. Whether that's PSS or Conti DW or DWS, I'd just put wet traction up pretty high on the list. Just my 2 cents obviously.

I know I sound like a cheering section for the PSS, but I really like the tire, especially in the rain. Here's another review, done by a pretty good track rat, on the PSS. Worth a look.

Thanks for the forum compliments. It's a great (and unusual) group here at Zpost. Unique in fact compared to most internet "forums". Recommend getting one of these when they come out. Quite a few forum members in the Pacific NW, and here in Norcal as well.

Last edited by Finnegan; 03-19-2013 at 06:42 PM..
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      03-19-2013, 06:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Rivals have been tested to be faster side by side on the track and autocross course.

I would wait for wet weather to come for the ZIIs. They changed their tread patterns to match the RS3 almost.
What are you seeing out there?
What's the hot tire ATM.
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      03-19-2013, 06:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
What kind of wheels and more importantly offsets? 245/275 combo works fine with those size wheels--have it running with 8.5 ET37 and 9.5 ET22.

RE: track, are you a really advanced driver? If not (hey, that's not me either), and if you don't push too hard, I think the PSS would be fine for the occassional light and easy fun day. As Kgolf says, PSS is not really designed for that, but I don't think you want to shell out $$$ for a dedicated set of wheels/tires for 2x days at the track a year.

My advice would be to get something that is prioritized along the lines of need--and given location, that's good dry performance and very good wet performance as top priorities, track needs further down the list. Whether that's PSS or Conti DW or DWS, I'd just put wet traction up pretty high on the list. Just my 2 cents obviously.

I know I sound like a cheering section for the PSS, but I really like the tire, especially in the rain. Here's another review, done by a pretty good track rat, on the PSS. Worth a look.

Thanks for the forum compliments. It's a great (and unusual) group here at Zpost. Unique in fact compared to most internet "forums". Recommend getting one of these when they come out. Quite a few forum members in the Pacific NW, and here in Norcal as well.
Sounds like solid advice. I am definitely not an advanced driver, but would like to get better But you are correct that my tires should be directed to my primary needs, which do not involve a track and do involve rain. PSS is sounding pretty good right now, and not too much of a premium over the DW option.

As for the sizing issue, these are Apex Arc-8 wheels (bought them used here from MakoBimmer1) and are 18x8.5-et38 and 18x10-et25.
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      03-19-2013, 07:10 PM   #15
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245/40 and 275/35 should fit. Have that set-up with PSS on 8.5 ET38 and 9.5 ET22s.

Especially with the rounded sidewalls on the PSS--less likely to get inner or outer liner rub. Star Specs or a more aggressive footprint and square shouldered tire in 275s is more of a fitment challenge, in that case 235/265 might be recommended.
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      03-19-2013, 07:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
What are you seeing out there?
What's the hot tire ATM.
For autocross the Rivals are putting down stupid fast times. BFG has said themselves they are not meant for wet though.

Really good thread:

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/441972


There was a Match Tour at Dixie this weekend, need to see what street tires were winning.
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      03-20-2013, 04:13 AM   #17
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I agree with everyone's opinion on here about the V12s. The wear is great, dry traction is awesome, all that's been said already. Wet traction wasn't the best, but having (finally!) had some skid pad training, i felt more confident in *MY* abilities in the wet, so maybe i pushed them past the traction limit.

Agreed that I won't be getting these again. I might shell out the money for PSS, but I'm hoping by that time there will be some good reviews for the RS3 (Hankook). I've still got about 50% tread left on these currently so it's still further off.

I've only driven on these and KDWs (not including the stock Contis), so I don't have much of a differing opinion on tires. (if any cares the KDW were garbage. seemed to get greasier the warmer they got, but that's for a different thread)
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      03-20-2013, 08:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007MCoupe
I agree with everyone's opinion on here about the V12s. The wear is great, dry traction is awesome, all that's been said already. Wet traction wasn't the best, but having (finally!) had some skid pad training, i felt more confident in *MY* abilities in the wet, so maybe i pushed them past the traction limit.

Agreed that I won't be getting these again. I might shell out the money for PSS, but I'm hoping by that time there will be some good reviews for the RS3 (Hankook). I've still got about 50% tread left on these currently so it's still further off.

I've only driven on these and KDWs (not including the stock Contis), so I don't have much of a differing opinion on tires. (if any cares the KDW were garbage. seemed to get greasier the warmer they got, but that's for a different thread)
I run RS3s for autocross and track, and IMO I'd steer someone towards Dunlop ZIIs over RS3s.

RS3s need a lot of heat to get grip. Any day below 75 you will have a hard time. As well, they are scary in the cold and wet. I had a track day at Mid-Ohio in 55 degree weather and rain and it was scary, no confidence what so ever.

RS3s also require a large slip angle to achieve maximum grip. While the break-away is linear, the Dunlop ZIs (haven't driven on ZIIs) are easier to predict when you're going to lose traction, and IMO the star specs can recover faster than the RS3s when you exceed grip.


The RS3s like to tramline a bit and are noisy on the highway.




Awesome high performance tire, just not good for DD
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      03-20-2013, 09:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
I run RS3s for autocross and track, and IMO I'd steer someone towards Dunlop ZIIs over RS3s.

RS3s need a lot of heat to get grip. Any day below 75 you will have a hard time. As well, they are scary in the cold and wet. I had a track day at Mid-Ohio in 55 degree weather and rain and it was scary, no confidence what so ever.

RS3s also require a large slip angle to achieve maximum grip. While the break-away is linear, the Dunlop ZIs (haven't driven on ZIIs) are easier to predict when you're going to lose traction, and IMO the star specs can recover faster than the RS3s when you exceed grip.


The RS3s like to tramline a bit and are noisy on the highway.




Awesome high performance tire, just not good for DD
Very true, my RS-3s are my track only tire but I only got to use them for 1-2 events last year. Anything earlier or later in the season where temps were 60 or below, and possible rain... I switched back to my Star Specs.
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      03-20-2013, 09:36 AM   #20
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One thing I've noticed with other tires compared to michelin tires, is that most other brands (dunlop, continental, BFG, etc) all seem to not perform nearly as well the older they get... Michelin tires seem to perform the same as they did brand new all the way down to the bars, and in my opinion that means more to me than having something that's quiet and grippy for the first 1/3 of the tires life, and the remaining 2/3's are traction impaired and noisy.

On another car of mine I had Continental DWS, and they were really good when they were above 50% tread, but once they started to wear down more they got downright scary in the rain, so much that I didn't drive the car in the rain. I have heard other people make similar comments about other tire brands as well..

On my Infiniti I have PS2's and they seem to be every bit as good as when they were new, which really makes me want to stick with michelins.
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      03-20-2013, 10:17 AM   #21
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My RS3s keep on getting faster, and faster, and faster as the tread disappears. I love it
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      03-20-2013, 10:58 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by elwesso View Post
One thing I've noticed with other tires compared to michelin tires, is that most other brands (dunlop, continental, BFG, etc) all seem to not perform nearly as well the older they get... Michelin tires seem to perform the same as they did brand new all the way down to the bars, and in my opinion that means more to me than having something that's quiet and grippy for the first 1/3 of the tires life, and the remaining 2/3's are traction impaired and noisy.

On another car of mine I had Continental DWS, and they were really good when they were above 50% tread, but once they started to wear down more they got downright scary in the rain, so much that I didn't drive the car in the rain. I have heard other people make similar comments about other tire brands as well..

On my Infiniti I have PS2's and they seem to be every bit as good as when they were new, which really makes me want to stick with michelins.

When you got down to the 50%, was the "W" still in the tread? I had my DWS on my daily for 55k and could've gone longer had it been the summer because the "D" was still there... but during cold/wet didn't drive so great.
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