Vibra Technics then Rogue Engineering Any Improvement?

[Bossdog]

Originally Posted by StickMon

3002 tii says in post #10 that he has them and likes them.

I'm trying to decide between those and these from RE.

Both claim to be as good as the $800 ones.
The pictures only show the bottoms of the BimmerWorld an the tops of the RE.
I wish I at least knew what the other ends look like.

Curiously, Neither the RE mounts nor the Bimmerworld Mounts state specifically what the mount is made of, rubber or some synthetic??
Hmmm?

[SaltyNC]

StickMon,

If VT responds and offers an inexpensive replacement part, would you consider sticking with VT? I know it's a pain to replace the mount, but 44K miles isn't chicken scratch, though I would expect them to last at least twice that. Is your desire to move on based on the vibration you were getting, to see if a different mount will fix that issue, plus to avoid having to do this again in another 40K?

Salty

[bignosejim]

I think the VT mounts are more likely to crack than OE due to less rubber, but the root cause of the failure is lack of proper heat shield not a design flaw of the VT mount. Your OE mount failed the same way after all. It seems like once you get the heat shield figured out that your mounts, no matter what you go with, will last longer. I don't know what VT claims their mount lifespan is, but I would expect it to be less than an OE mount. Most performance based parts I expect are like that.

I also would like to see how VT responds to this. One of the main reasons I bought these mounts was because they are rebuildable at less cost than an OE mount. I never expected them to last as long. If VT doesn't show a willingness to sell a rebuild kit, I might start looking elsewhere for motor mounts once mine are done.

Hope everything gets sorted quickly.

[StickMon]

Originally Posted by SaltyNC

StickMon,

If VT responds and offers an inexpensive replacement part, would you consider sticking with VT? I know it's a pain to replace the mount, but 44K miles isn't chicken scratch, though I would expect them to last at least twice that. Is your desire to move on based on the vibration you were getting, to see if a different mount will fix that issue, plus to avoid having to do this again in another 40K?

Salty

I liked the mounts, until one broke. Prior to that, the vibration was minimal.
If VT were to respond, and I could get the replacement guts, I would probably buy lots of replacement guts, make a better heat shield, and stick with them.
I think it's unlikely that VT will respond, and I'm not willing to badger them.
I'll just vote with my wallet and go buy something else.
And as Jim points out, my stock mount lasted twice as long.
The BimmerWorld and RE are similar to stock, with lots of rubber (or whatever it is) to better dissipate the heat.

I think with a more substantial mount, and the heat shield Varinn found with a fashionable Kevlar skirt attached, Bob's my Uncle.

[StickMon]

Originally Posted by bignosejim

... Your OE mount failed the same way after all. ...

I agree that the culprit is more BMW than VT, or maybe me for sitting in traffic in 100° heat in a racecar.
But I should clarify, I bought the VT mounts because:
1) They look super cool
2) Everybody was doing it
3) The group buy price was too good to pass up
4) My stock ones seemed OK, but I figured they had a good run
5) Racecar

After 5 years and 88k miles my stock mount hadn't actually "failed".
I didn't even know it had cracks in it until I removed it. The cracks were under the heat shield.
Probably would have been 100k miles before it cracked through to the chewy nougat center.

Others be warned:
If you're over 100k miles on original stock mounts, the cracks are under the heat shield where you can't see them.
Waiting for the critical moment.

[David70]

I disagree about the mount issue being more BMW than Vibra Techics. Vibra knew the car and the environment they would be used in and their design didn't stand up to the heat. If you were using them on a car they didn't know about or under some abnormal extreme conditions I would agree.

There are some reviews of the RE engine mounts on E46 M3's, they might be relevant.

The OP in this review took them off because of too much NVH but then believed they might have been over torqued. Many others give some opinions. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=347355&page=3

Post #23 concerns me, might be worth calling them to get their input -

Re: Review: RE Engine Mounts
I was lucky enough to call RE and ask about their engine mounts. Their website sounds like they're a good compromise for a DD car, but on the phone they told me to forget it.

So when I replaced my motor mounts I got OEM ones.

[Beedub]

hmmmmmm very concerned about this, brought to my attention by another member here...

I've dropped an email with a link and if i don't get a response i will be calling them. Not happy at all, mine however are fine, and the EU cars didn't have a heat shield this side due to no cats in heads so I'm HOPING i don't see this issue.

Either way i specially had a conversation with phil who explained these are rebuildable as long as we had a way of holding the mount, they have a jig that hold while they undo the nuts.

[Beedub]

fwiw mine are doing great, no issues and look as new, they have seen lots of track use, i run the competition units from VT. I will remove the Hot side and thoroughly check while in hibernation i think however.

[WickedNy]

Originally Posted by David70

I disagree about the mount issue being more BMW than Vibra Techics. Vibra knew the car and the environment they would be used in and their design didn't stand up to the heat. If you were using them on a car they didn't know about or under some abnormal extreme conditions I would agree.

There are some reviews of the RE engine mounts on E46 M3's, they might be relevant.

The OP in this review took them off because of too much NVH but then believed they might have been over torqued. Many others give some opinions. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=347355&page=3

Post #23 concerns me, might be worth calling them to get their input -

In all honesty you have to expect some nvh when upgrading...to expect an oem feel, buy oem. Otherwise don't expect something on par with an oem feel.... just imo

[StickMon]

Of course, it's all subjective.
Maybe the M3 picks up worse nhv than the Z4?
There were a couple of guys in M3forum that thought the VT was too harsh and went back to stock.
I found the vibration from the VT and RE trans mount combo to be barely noticeable.

Not clear on the thought that they may have been over torqued.
Don't they have a metal plate on each end, and nothing but rubber in between?
How does the torque affect the damping of the big rubber chunk in between?

[David70]

Originally Posted by WickedNy

In all honesty you have to expect some nvh when upgrading...to expect an oem feel, buy oem. Otherwise don't expect something on par with an oem feel.... just imo

The problem with this is determining what "expect some nvh" means. Stickmon says the VT/RE trans combo was barely noticeable. OEM to solid bushings leaves a lot of possibilities in between the two and as he also says what one person thinks is ok may not be for another. If I was buying RE mounts I would call and get their opinion on what I should expect. Worst case is it is a waste of a couple of minutes.

Originally Posted by StickMon

Not clear on the thought that they may have been over torqued.
Don't they have a metal plate on each end, and nothing but rubber in between?
How does the torque affect the damping of the big rubber chunk in between?

http://www.rogueengineering.com/rogu...SH/RE_PEM.html

The internals of the mount feature a unique locking system in the event of a crash, the internal hardware of the mounts prevent complete failure of the mount. Whereas the integrity of the mount will be compromised, its internal construction prevents the mounts upper and lower plates from completely tearing away from each other. Whereas this may seem to be a small feature, this will ultimately decrease the chances of the engine from breaching the firewall, and entering the internal compartment of the vehicle. No other performance mount can make this claim.

I would expect that this internal hardware and construction means that as you torque it down the bushing material is being compressed.

[Beedub]

phil emailed me back immediately ....

Hello Byron, We had considered doing a rebuild kit but they are not easy to get apart. You risk damaging other parts of the mount if you try and dismantle them without the right kit or reassemble them incorrectly.

We have been making these for about 5 years now. We have built literally thousands of them as they are used on all E36, E46, Z3, Z4 and E90M3 vehicles sold worldwide The reliability record has been proven to be outstanding.

There may be some deterioration cosmetically on the surface of the rubber because of the environment, It is possible that you could see what appears to be a stain caused by original assembly fluid used to insert the rubber mount which can precipitate out in the early days of usage, but this has no effect on performance.

Regards

Phil B

[Beedub]

they are rebuildable but need a special jig to hold them basically....

Interns of the other thread where they were noticing a brown staining.... he also answer this too....

i guess its very reasonable to see a small amount of failures given the amounts sold.... the failure rate seems on par with the o.e mount from what i see.

but phil is answering emails quickly... i suggest anyone with a failed part contact him immediately.

[XMetal]

Bee,
Thanks for the update and getting in contact with VT It didn't look like VT addressed StickMon's issue though - the giant split in the rubber? We understood all the minor cosmetic issues associated with the mounts, but not this failure. Did VT mentioned/proposed anything to make it right for StickMon?

Funny how VT is taking a back seat on rebuilding them as these were originally marketed as being rebuildable (by the user), which is no longer really viable if it requires an assembly jig Does VT at least provide a discount for complete replacement units when needed so at least the cost is similar to the core replacement parts - somewhat like a core exchange program? But then again, shipping back the "core" is almost meaningless as it somewhat defeats the purpose as shipping charges would eat up all the savings since most of us are overseas

[David70]

Originally Posted by XMetal

Bee,
Thanks for the update and getting in contact with VT It didn't look like VT addressed StickMon's issue though - the giant split in the rubber? We understood all the minor cosmetic issues associated with the mounts, but not this failure. Did VT mentioned/proposed anything to make it right for StickMon?

Funny how VT is taking a back seat on rebuilding them as these were originally marketed as being rebuildable (by the user), which is no longer really viable if it requires an assembly jig Does VT at least provide a discount for complete replacement units when needed so at least the cost is similar to the core replacement parts - somewhat like a core exchange program? But then again, shipping back the "core" is almost meaningless as it somewhat defeats the purpose as shipping charges would eat up all the savings since most of us are overseas

2.5 year old product with a 6 month warranty I think the

We have been making these for about 5 years now. We have built literally thousands of them as they are used on all E36, E46, Z3, Z4 and E90M3 vehicles sold worldwide The reliability record has been proven to be outstanding.

is their answer. I also expect at selling them for $163 each that they don't want to go into business of rebuilding them as the cost to them ends up being too close to what a new one costs them. If they marketed them as re-buildable this seems to be wrong or at least impracticable.

If I had the problem I would ask them to do something (maybe ask for reduced price) but expect nothing, then if they say no, ask to buy 1 instead of 2, or try another brands product.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by bignosejim

I also would like to see how VT responds to this. One of the main reasons I bought these mounts was because they are rebuildable at less cost than an OE mount. I never expected them to last as long. If VT doesn't show a willingness to sell a rebuild kit, I might start looking elsewhere for motor mounts once mine are done.

+1

I'm not afraid to take them apart either. (and when you have your car on a lift, installing/reinstalling them takes less than 30 min).
I dont know the exact construction, but usually I take things apart and rebuild them where others say it's impossible.
No user servceable parts inside is very relative
The possibility to rebuild is important to me, although there is always the chance that if/when the mount breaks, the company isn't around anymore. That happens too (not usually with parts that fail within 2 years..)

And about the overtorqueing: there is no possibility to do that in this case. If done a bolt would snap. Not the rubber imho.
When the top nut is torqued, the engine rests on the mount and there is enough friction to not distort the rubber in a torodial/circular way. The bottom part is held in place by an extra peg.

If the mounts werent rebuildable and I had to replace them, I would try something in this style:

Cost per pair about the same as 1 VT mount....


It is the same style of mount that VT for example has for a subaru:

But then for a bmw

(the stock subaru mount looks completely different, basically a square rubber block)

[Beedub]

Email again guys, they are now watching this thread, i did ask him to chime in but got no reply on that....

as long as you can workout a way of holding the body of the mount, these are home rebuildable..... VT originally maketed these as rebuildable so lets call them out on it and get some isolators sent out, tbh I've only seen one actually total failure of these and thats in this thread, so the Stats are good still.

[StickMon]

The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.

I think this weekend I'll be ordering the BimmerWorld mounts, the E36 heat shield, and some Kevlar.
I'm not afraid of some nhv. I have a bad back, and it will be worse after replacing the mounts, so some massage will do me good.

The alleged torque dependence of the RE has me spooked.
The instruction video for their RSM is rather unprofessional with regards to torque.
Along the lines of "just tighten it so that it looks sort of like this'". The same may hold for the motor mounts.
Just not comfortable.

When I get the VT mount off, I'll be doing a full autopsy.
Then we'll see how hard it is to get apart.
I mean, it's got a freakin' stud on the bottom. If it needs to be held that well, just bolt it to an immovable object.

I'm like GuidoK. No user serviceable parts my eye.
When I see "Do NOT Remove Cover", that's a dare.

[SaltyNC]

Originally Posted by Beedub

phil emailed me back immediately ....

Hello Byron, We had considered doing a rebuild kit but they are not easy to get apart. You risk damaging other parts of the mount if you try and dismantle them without the right kit or reassemble them incorrectly.

We have been making these for about 5 years now. We have built literally thousands of them as they are used on all E36, E46, Z3, Z4 and E90M3 vehicles sold worldwide The reliability record has been proven to be outstanding.

There may be some deterioration cosmetically on the surface of the rubber because of the environment, It is possible that you could see what appears to be a stain caused by original assembly fluid used to insert the rubber mount which can precipitate out in the early days of usage, but this has no effect on performance.

Regards

Phil B

Byron,

Thanks so much for contacting Phil on our behalf!

Salty

[StickMon]

Indeed! Thank you very much for the help Bee!
And sorry for jacking your thread Salty.

[Beedub]

no problems I'm hoping this opens the lines of communication alittle ... in reality, surely while the car is resting with the mounts in place is the easiest way to undo the 6 hex nuts coding it together, nothing can be damaged that way.....

[bignosejim]

Is there a way to send VT our mounts to have rebuilt? They have distributors in the US I believe. It could be sent there for rebuilding to avoid the extra expenses. You would think that they could their US distributors a "jig" to rebuild them. Better yet they could do an exchange program to get you a set while you wait for yours to be rebuilt. I'm going to be very disappointed in the long run I believe. Really sucks when a company with a great product won't stand behind it.

VT should get in on this discussion.

We were all led to believe that these mounts weren't "one and done" type of mounts.