ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   ZPOST > BMW Z4 Technical Talk > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
  TireRack

SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-04-2013, 08:44 PM   #1
Shaung
First Lieutenant
43
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland Oregon

iTrader: (0)

Where's the track speed to be gained in this car?

Hi Track Junkies,

Just had my first track day with my Z4M. I've been going to the track for HPDE's days since 2000 with a variety of modified street cars. Before the Z4M coupe drove a 2004 BMW M3, square setup, Hankook RS3's PSS9, PF06 brake pads. Pretty much the "standard what you do be faster at the track" stuff. I was making some gains(cutting time) but was stuck at a pretty consistent lap time. Anyways, the Z4M has HR springs, Dunlop Direzza II's and the Evolve software and that's about it. It needs pads and I know that.

So, what do I need and should I do with my money. Couple of things, it needs to stay streetable and force induction is very very low on the my personal list.

So give your ideas and suggestion! I dream of running down the slower Z06's.



Thanks!

Last edited by Shaung; 06-04-2013 at 08:55 PM..
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2013, 09:21 PM   #2
seank
enthusiast
seank's Avatar
48
Rep
1,695
Posts

Drives: e30 m3,e90 wagon,sprinter,z4m
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: sacramento, ca

iTrader: (4)

Take some weight out and perfectly dial in the suspension. All poly in the suspension, better differential. Upgrade oil pump. larger oil cooler.

I don't know much about PIR, but you can usually check to see what the track record is for the class. In NASA, it is a B car.

If I raced the z4, I would find out the complete specs of what tc Kline did to there cars to make them fast. I believe the e46 m3 and z4m are completely different cars, so it is important to treat it as so. What you do to one doesn't necessarily apply, unless we are just talking about the s54.

Based on your last statement, you will need to strip the car to get down to 2800lbs.
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2013, 10:03 PM   #3
Shaung
First Lieutenant
43
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland Oregon

iTrader: (0)

Times, I could 1:35's all day long in the M3. I had a 1:33 as a PR. On last HPDE day I recorded some times for some slower Z06's and they were in the 1:31 up to 1:34'
s. I know a great driver who in his E36 M3's does 1:26's! The car just about a race car though, gutted, caged etc.

Monday at PIR, the loving wife did a 1:37 in the Z4M. In the M3 she did a PR of 1:34. At the same even I ran somewhere in the 1:40. Yes, I know she was faster. I was just getting a feel for the car. The stock pads don't give much confidence.

My head was focused on grip but never really thought about weight. Where is the big weight in this car? Is there a 300 pound lead weight hidden somewhere? It would make is so much easier! In all seriousness thanks for any tips.
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2013, 10:11 PM   #4
seank
enthusiast
seank's Avatar
48
Rep
1,695
Posts

Drives: e30 m3,e90 wagon,sprinter,z4m
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: sacramento, ca

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaung View Post
Times, I could 1:35's all day long in the M3. I had a 1:33 as a PR. On last HPDE day I recorded some times for some slower Z06's and they were in the 1:31 up to 1:34'
s. I know a great driver who in his E36 M3's does 1:26's! The car just about a race car though, gutted, caged etc.

Monday at PIR, the loving wife did a 1:37 in the Z4M. In the M3 she did a PR of 1:34. At the same even I ran somewhere in the 1:40. Yes, I know she was faster. I was just getting a feel for the car. The stock pads don't give much confidence.

My head was focused on grip but never really thought about weight. Where is the big weight in this car? Is there a 300 pound lead weight hidden somewhere? It would make is so much easier! In all seriousness thanks for any tips.
I think the weight is the motor, air bags, and electronics of a modern bmw. No rear seat to remove, so the next place is the a/c and light weight seats. That might be close to 120 lbs.

Sorry you got beat by the misses
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2013, 10:13 PM   #5
ZStig
instagram 997turbotom
279
Rep
7,376
Posts

Drives: Interlagos Z4MR
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Delray Beach, FL

iTrader: (4)

the battery is quite heavy, as are the seats
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2013, 10:26 PM   #6
Shaung
First Lieutenant
43
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland Oregon

iTrader: (0)

Do you have a recommended lighter battery?

How's the exhaust for weight?
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2013, 10:27 PM   #7
Shaung
First Lieutenant
43
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland Oregon

iTrader: (0)

She's fast, like I think she should be a race car driver fast. I can still out bench her no problem! lol. I'm lucky to have a her as a track buddy, and since we share a car we always know if it's the driver or the car.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 12:02 AM   #8
Finnegan
Dog Listener
Finnegan's Avatar
United_States
701
Rep
7,850
Posts

Drives: Z4M/. Z3M, E36/46 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Teaching the dog to slalom

iTrader: (22)

Race seats, 40 lbs saved per side.
Trunk and hatch trim (remove) 28 lbs.
Stock wheel 25 F 26 R. Apex ARC-8 ~18 lbs.
Exhaust can shave 5-10 lbs.
A/C - no idea.
Shared hobby - priceless. (My wife and I have the same interest too.)
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 12:45 AM   #9
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Brakes.

Take a look at this video.



Listen from 0:41 to 0:51.

If you've found your driving has plateaued, one area you can make up the biggest ground in terms of improvement is in brakes. Be it better equipment or better technique, or learning to adjust your braking specifically to maximize the amount of braking done in the least amount of time.

And I agree with Mr. Kendall. Once you get up to about 9/10th in speed, the last 10th is all braking. It's the one thing that separates the men from boys in high performance driving.

And especially on this chassis, as compared to the E46 M3, there's more power per pound of mass, with the right equipment under your foot, you should be able to brake later, brake harder, but do it in a much shorter span of time while maintaining higher speed through the turns and also better acceleration out of turns. But all that advantage is wasted if you're approaching a turn at the same speed or maybe even slower because you had to brake longer since the E46 actually has better body control due to the longer chassis.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 10:14 AM   #10
Shaung
First Lieutenant
43
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland Oregon

iTrader: (0)

Question.. 4 wheel BKK. Worth it?
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 11:38 AM   #11
inTgr8r
Lieutenant General
inTgr8r's Avatar
Canada
2422
Rep
11,665
Posts

Drives: M2 Comp
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaung View Post
Question.. 4 wheel BKK. Worth it?
You can do a lot with upgrading pads etc on the OE

But, I absolutely love my Stoptechs.
Never fade, lap after lap.
Just as good on the way home as they were getting there.
The feel is FAR superior.
__________________
'21 M2C Hockenheim Silver
'18 718 Cayman S Lava Orange (sold)
'13 E92 M3 Santorini Blue (sold)
'07 Z4 M Coupe Alpine White (sold)
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 11:48 AM   #12
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Depends. What are your goals with this car, how do you intend to use it, and how much disposable income do you have?

You can accomplish A LOT on this car with simple proven track pads like Performance Friction PF-01 or later pads, Hawk DTC-60 or better pads, or Cobalt XR-3 or better pads, which all have available fitment for the MZ4 Coupe and can be had between $400-600 dollars. I'd say 80% of your brake improvement will come from this alone.

For a set of BBKs to really impact your lap times beyond what simple track pads on OE sliding calipers can do, you'll also have to spend more than the typical $4,000 range because 1) you'll have to upgrade your wheels, most likely, since most OE wheels and in fact quite a few of the aftermarket wheels will not clear a larger caliper, much less a larger caliper on a bigger rotor and 2) you'll likely have to REALLY upgrade the tires. The reason being, if you want to brake later, brake harder, and brake for a shorter span of time while maintaining higher cornering speed, you'll ultimately NEED the grip and heat capacity of a true R-Comp like Nitto NT-01, Toyo RA-1/R888/RR, Maxxis RC-1, Hoosier A6/R6...etc. Those will ultimately allow you to brake when you want, where you want, and give you almost unlimited control over your brakes. Already you're looking at probably at least $6,000-8,000 worth, easily 10X more than pads alone for an additional 20% improvement.

But if your goal is to find the last ounce of speed on this car, is a BBK worth it? I'd say yes. It'll give you the last bit of brake pedal modulation control, excellent feel and know exactly what your brakes are doing, and practically inexhaustible amount of cooling so that you know for sure you can haul down from 120mph to 40mph repeatedly, 2-3 times a minute.

I would say, if you have that sort of budget, first throw some of it my way. In terms of return on investment, I would seriously consider a new set of PFC-06 or 08 first. Then I would consider a set of better dampers. Back in 2006 I had the Rookie of the Year that year (well he wasn't rookie of the year yet) in Speed World Challenge drive my car at a local track, and immediately he identified the dampers as the biggest weak-point in the suspension and I concur.

Then if you're still chasing that last 10th of a second, I'd look into BBK.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 11:58 AM   #13
philjw
Second Lieutenant
United_States
8
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 Coupe
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Alexandria, VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
In terms of return on investment, I would seriously consider a new set of PFC-06 or 08 first. Then I would consider a set of better dampers. Back in 2006 I had the Rookie of the Year that year (well he wasn't rookie of the year yet) in Speed World Challenge drive my car at a local track, and immediately he identified the dampers as the biggest weak-point in the suspension and I concur.
Are there any real options for our cars without going full coilover? I know bilstein makes the HD's but not sure if they're any better than stock?
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 12:23 PM   #14
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by philjw View Post
Are there any real options for our cars without going full coilover? I know bilstein makes the HD's but not sure if they're any better than stock?
I'd consider the Bilsteins as replacement, not an upgrade. You'll need some adjustability, at least in rebound. If you're adept at wrenching and cutting sh*t open, you can actually buy Koni strut inserts that fit the car and cut open your factory strut to replace. Or you can go the high end and buy MCS or Motons with dampers only (I believe).

Technically, you can buy E36 front struts, and have them altered so the piston travel is shorter, or just run plain jane struts as long as you plan on taking them off and rebuilding every few years (thus high-end struts).
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 12:38 PM   #15
Shaung
First Lieutenant
43
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland Oregon

iTrader: (0)

I'm running OEM M3(219) wheels that will clear a brake kit. I've run PF06 pads (on stock brakes) for 2 seasons and loved them. No fade, hard bite but a pain to keep swapping back and forth and killed my rotors. I'm running the Dunlop Direzza II tire right now and after one HPDE would have to say they are an awesome tire. Last year I ran the Hankook RS3, also a great tire for the price although they could get a bit dicey if cold.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 01:03 PM   #16
seank
enthusiast
seank's Avatar
48
Rep
1,695
Posts

Drives: e30 m3,e90 wagon,sprinter,z4m
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: sacramento, ca

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
If you've found your driving has plateaued, one area you can make up the biggest ground in terms of improvement is in brakes. Be it better equipment or better technique, or learning to adjust your braking specifically to maximize the amount of braking done in the least amount of time.

And I agree with Mr. Kendall. Once you get up to about 9/10th in speed, the last 10th is all braking. It's the one thing that separates the men from boys in high performance driving.
Quote:
Then if you're still chasing that last 10th of a second, I'd look into BBK.
Based on the OP's original question, I think he is not chasing the last 10th (no offense to the OP).

In my years of racing I don't know ONE person who runs BBK's, unless they have a heavily modified engine (i.e. 500 hp e46 m3). Everyone runs better brake pads for the track which will make the largest gain by far. The money saved can buy a lot to:

-change RWHP/ TQ (larger pullys, light weight clutch and flywheel)
-Os Geiken differential with a 4.10
-lighten the car (faster around corners and brakes better)
-suspension, wheels, and tires
-track pads
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 06:18 PM   #17
ZStig
instagram 997turbotom
279
Rep
7,376
Posts

Drives: Interlagos Z4MR
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Delray Beach, FL

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaung View Post
Do you have a recommended lighter battery?

How's the exhaust for weight?
ETX-20L
+ this battery hold-down which can be drilled into your existing battery tray
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 11:58 PM   #18
007MCoupe
Lieutenant Colonel
007MCoupe's Avatar
United_States
91
Rep
1,546
Posts

Drives: '18 Sakhir M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ( ///// )

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaung View Post
Question.. 4 wheel BKK. Worth it?
If you have 5-6 grand laying around and you feel you're actually getting everything out of the car as is, then jump on a BBK. I'll be missing this track season due to a deployment, but I've found a few boards and threads that I'll be lurking throughout the season and see what pads work best in all different conditions.

Currently I'm looking at Racing Brake's rotors and some pads.

I'd also reccomend shoring up the stock suspension and upgrading what parts you see fit as the need to upgrade comes. At least, that's what works for me anyway, ballin on a budget. Can't drop tons of money on a whim, so I have to consciously analyze where I can get more out of the car cheapest first.

Good tires cannot understated, since that's what actually touches the road. Obviously.
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:26 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST