Valves adjusted at 27k

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by cliffhopper

I have the spec sheet. Here's the shims that were changed.
2.26 -> 2.24 (2.26 is not standard, but the micrometer measured it at that)
2.36 -> 2.32
2.32 -> 2.28
2.32 -> 2.28
2.36 -> 2.32

Yes, I verified all clearances before and after the shims were replaced. We did not document what shims were there for the valves that did not need to be adjusted...since they didn't need adjustment.

The shim sizes go from 2.60 down to 1.72 in .04 increments, I doubt I'll run out of sizes by 100k.

I had a few non-standard sizes. I think the factory, upon assembly, has a much wider range of shim sizes. I had 2 @ 2.19, measured twice after calibrating. I figured I'd keep them for the future, someone may need an odd size.

[G80indy]

great pictures!! Thanks for posting!

[kaiv]

Greg, thank you for the kind words, I much appreciate it!!


I see there are a few questions and concerns so I will try to address them all.

Originally Posted by XMetal

Awesome...thanks for sharing. I've heard great things about Kevin and sounds like he's a specialist at this I will definitely be calling Kevin to do my adjustment as well later on this year (about 8k miles to go)!

Did you change out the plugs as well? Where did you get your transmission and diff fluids done?

Thank you! I would be happy to help; and I can also do diff and transmission fluids ^^

Originally Posted by BMW Maniac

Shim "screen" what a novel concept!

Those are present on '02 S54s and up. Look at a 2001 M3/Z3M engine and there are just holes!

Originally Posted by bignosejim

Wow, that engine is super clean! Glad to hear no issues with the vanos. It was a big relief when I did mine, being able to see my tabs were intact.

Did you RTV the rear half moons? When I did my 07 MC, I didn't see any RTV around there so I didn't add any (unlike what the TIS says). So far I've had no leaks.

It's the cleanest S54 I've seen and I've seen over 80!!

As for the half moons, they do not call for RTV. You only need to put a dab of RTV on the seams on either side of the front of the engine where the vanos is bolted.

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Valves stretch, and the valve seats can recede over time. I had 2 on the exhaust side tight like that as well.

Most commonly the valve clearances get looser over time but I do see clearances getting tighter on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by thekurgan

It is rare for leaks in the rear, pick up a small mirror and check is once in a while, if you feel or see oil (usually where the half moon transitions to the flat surface, it's a sharp area, then you'll know the rtv was needed. Was your gasket semi-oily when it arrived in the kit? I found my gasket pretty oily and cleaned it with dawn before putting it on the cleaned head surface.

Gasket comes 100% dry. We cleaned all the gasket mating surfaces prior to installation (head and cover).

Originally Posted by runnerx

my buddy and I worked on his Z4M with roughly 20k miles never had the cover removed before (no valve adjust or vanos ever done to it) and it had the same RTV. His car came with the new cam bolts but with no loctite. We decided to replace them anyways + loctite to ensure they stay in place.

Originally Posted by thekurgan

There should have been, can be varying in color from blue, black or dark brown. I went with the clear 3M stuff though.

Re: RTV from the factory

If you guys says so, then there must be! I will admit this is news to me. I see mostly E46 M3s -the Z4M is a rare car- and on those I am pretty positive there is no RTV from the factory. If there is some on the Z4M then it is news to me! Little things change over production years so I wouldn't be surprised.

As for the cam bolts I have never seen loctite on them.

Originally Posted by davesz4mc

If your valves streached or wore enough seat of to require smaller shims at 27K you have bigger issues going on! You will not even need at shim at 100k at that rate. Post a close up of them spec shet and did you check any clearences yourself? A loose motor is not a happy motor.

I'm not sure what you mean but the OP's valves were out of the factory spec (range) on the tight side. Ie the gap/lash was too small. 1 size up in shim was required to get back to spec (neither loose or tight).

Originally Posted by Caddyshk

Maybe I'm missing something; however, I was of the understanding that both inspecting and replacing the bolts required removal of the vanos unit itself? Not simply done while doing the valve work.

I would say you are partially correct Replacing: 100% correct. Inspecting: say 50/50.

I inspect the cam bolts by doing a "wiggle test". Car in gear, ebrake off, grab firmly on the cam gear and rock it back and forth. Rotate 180deg, and repeat. (obviously pull car out of gear while rotating).

You are looking for play. There shouldn't be any movement of the gear whatsoever other than its own rotational axis. If a bunch of bolts are sheared you'll catch it.

Now this method is not 100% fail proof as you most likely won't catch a single bolt that just started shearing. It is however to be noted that the cam bolt failure won't come out of nowhere and bite you in the ass. The car will make some odd noises or rattles. If you're 'lucky' it'll throw a code. My point is that it's noticeable. So replacing the bolts can be done prior to failure if symptoms occur.

With that said, I've replaced the bolts in the past on several cars; either at the owners request who wanted them replaced for peace of mind or while replacing the a broken hub/vanos unit. Those who passed the test came out beautiful.

The hub tab failure on the other hand is more the silent killer. People drive around on one tab and have no idea. Car behaves and sounds the same. Until the second tab lets go.

Originally Posted by Blind32

That is correct, When you take the valve cover off, you will not be able to see much less reach the whole cam bolts. They are behind the VANOS unit. I replaced mine and it took a few hours. Also requires specific S54 tools.

Here is a shot of the suspect bolts from when I did mine. Notice the missing VANOS and CAM Covers.


My replacement thread: http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407826

Sorry not trying to thread jack

Hats off for DIYing! You can advance the exhaust cam to have the splined gear/vanos piston come out and make it easier to dismount the vanos. Looks way in in your pic.

Originally Posted by davesz4mc

So a min spec shim would not fit into those valves? I find it hard to believe it would ever need a reduction in overall shim size. My car with 65k miles I put 6 bigger shims in and would of put another 10 bigger shims in if they came half stepped. I was after min spec on every valve.

It is an interferance motor so if you drove it to get the adjustment done they were a good spec right? I am confused I guess at what measurments you took to determine they needed to be reduced in size.

(First bolded part): You need not find it hard to believe. It happens. I've adjusted the valves on over 80 different S54s so I've seen it all. Nothing to worry in this case.

(Second bolded part): The valve adjustment calls for a cool engine. If you drive before you do it you will get inaccurate valve clearance measurements (not to mention burn your fingers )

If you are not sure how to determine if a valve needs adjustment I suggest you read on it. Hint: it's done with feeler gauges

Originally Posted by thekurgan

I had a few non-standard sizes. I think the factory, upon assembly, has a much wider range of shim sizes. I had 2 @ 2.19, measured twice after calibrating. I figured I'd keep them for the future, someone may need an odd size.

I have an "odd size" baggie with shims measuring 2.45, 2.17 etc And you are correct about someone needing an odd size. I have a ton of used shims with slight variations in thickness that come in handy on a regular basis. Then I do my best to do a "high detail" valve adjustment. Sometimes I come up to a valve that is still technically in the range but very close to one end of the spec. I still do my best to move those toward the middle the range whenever possible.

Well it's getting late and I didn't proof read myself but I hope this makes sense!

[Blind32]

Awesome post. Great idea on keep the old shims for "half" sizes.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by Blind32

Awesome post. Great idea on keep the old shims for "half" sizes.

Agree, great post. Kaiv is the valve adjustment master. He is correct on the RTV, I've only done the E46M3 in the 204-2006 time period, and had to clean the rear half moon area of the factory gunk. They may have added the RTV later in production. Can't stress the "doing it yourself" as the best feeling, especially with more precision feeler gauges at hand as what the dealer techs call "within spec" can actually be out, using the gauges they are supplied.

[davesz4mc]

Burn...

I was saying if it is under tolerance on an interferance engine he should not of been driving it, then how did it get to you to work on? Not drive it around and then work on it hot.

I know it is done with feeler guages as I have done it myself. I was asking the process as I find it hard to believe that the motor would tighten up that bad. Did you go below .18 and check a .17 or anything? Was it a tight .18 wich still fits but made you uncomfortable to leave that close? Is it your preferance to make everything middle ground?

Not saying it could not require a smaller shim just asking the specifics that led to that conclusion.

The bag o odd sizes would be nice to have as I have about 10 valves that I would want to half step.

I did mine where if a .23 would fit easy I put in a larger shim, if .23 did not fit I just replaced the shim that was in it. There were a few larger than .20 but smaller than .23 that would of used a half step nice.

P.S. that would be one size down in shim to open the gap to within spec. Smaller number = smaller shim.....

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by davesz4mc

Burn...

I was saying if it is under tolerance on an interferance engine he should not of been driving it, then how did it get to you to work on? Not drive it around and then work on it hot.

I know it is done with feeler guages as I have done it myself. I was asking the process as I find it hard to believe that the motor would tighten up that bad. Did you go below .18 and check a .17 or anything? Was it a tight .18 wich still fits but made you uncomfortable to leave that close? Is it your preferance to make everything middle ground?

Not saying it could not require a smaller shim just asking the specifics that led to that conclusion.

The bag o odd sizes would be nice to have as I have about 10 valves that I would want to half step.

I did mine where if a .23 would fit easy I put in a larger shim, if .23 did not fit I just replaced the shim that was in it. There were a few larger than .20 but smaller than .23 that would of used a half step nice.

P.S. that would be one size down in shim to open the gap to within spec. Smaller number = smaller shim.....

Ok... I'm apologize, I'm just not getting you

He shouldn't have been driving it? Says who? Being a little on the tight side is not going to kill the motor... And hypothetically, even if he wasn't supposed to drive it, how would he know anyways, before measuring? (that's not really a question I'm just saying).

And you say you know how it's done but then you don't know how to tell if a valve is (too) tight? So you can only tell if it's (too) loose?

The minimum gap is .18mm on the intake. .28mm on the exhaust. Anything under that is too tight. If .18mm don't fit on the intake /.28 don't fit in the exhaust = too tight.

It is indeed my preference to 'make everything middle ground' as you put it. Given that the clearances can both get tighter or looser overtime, I feel being in the middle is a good and safe spot. Of course you can't always get it right in the middle since the whole clearance is .05mm and shims size increments are .04mm. But in the vast majority of cases you adjust the clearances to be comfortably in the middle of the spec. (if it wasn't the case BMW would provide more shim sizes/increments)

With that said if because of the circumstances (current gap and shim size on a specific valve), I have to decide between being very close to tight or very close to loose -yet both still within spec- I'd pick loose side for safety. It happens every once in a while.

Again you need not find it 'hard to believe'. Nothing abnormal and unusual there. Seen it many times. I also don't get your 'tightened up that bad'. Needing one an upsize or downsize by a single shim size is normal and not 'that bad'. I did see a car in the past that need to skip a size, on two valves. Now THAT was surprising and unusual!

[XMetal]

Kevin,
Great post! I might just take you up on the offer to do the transmission and diff fluid changes as well

[davesz4mc]

Ok beaten to death and I guess I am not making sense.

If you could flex the feeler guage in at .18 (tight fit) then I would call it in spec and be done. Because, to step to the next size up it would be just outside of spec .19-.23=.04mm or one shim size, .18 fits nice being ideal in my book. but a snug .18 is better than a snug .23 in my book.

That depends on if your going for (your defenition, subjective) safe or performance valve adjustment.

When I say performance I adjusted my car for min spec and it changed the way the car drives and sounds. Crisper exhaust note and I actually lost a little fuel economy with the increased lift and duration. Ok so a small change on one valves (6 valves increased in shim size, all shims were replaced) but across 24 valves at 7k rpm and it makes a differance...

All this I don't know what I am doing, I was trying to ask an educated question but if you are not understanding me then I can't help you.

After adjusting valves on bikes and other cars with a solid valve train I have not seen the gap decrease to date.

You can think what you will your entitled to your opinion...

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by davesz4mc

Ok beaten to death and I guess I am not making sense.

If you could flex the feeler guage in at .18 (tight fit) then I would call it in spec and be done. Because, to step to the next size up it would be just outside of spec .19-.23=.04mm or one shim size, .18 fits nice being ideal in my book. but a snug .18 is better than a snug .23 in my book.

That depends on if your going for (your defenition, subjective) safe or performance valve adjustment.

When I say performance I adjusted my car for min spec and it changed the way the car drives and sounds. Crisper exhaust note and I actually lost a little fuel economy with the increased lift and duration. Ok so a small change on one valves (6 valves increased in shim size, all shims were replaced) but across 24 valves at 7k rpm and it makes a differance...

All this I don't know what I am doing, I was trying to ask an educated question but if you are not understanding me then I can't help you.

After adjusting valves on bikes and other cars with a solid valve train I have not seen the gap decrease to date.

You can think what you will your entitled to your opinion...

Dave, you're certainly not harming anything from running too tight, except on the exhaust side, where I always take Aristotle's route, just because of the extreme temps and the need to cool the valves. Some cars may have valves that stretch to a different limit, some have more wear on the followers, cam lobes or the shims (do these things wear? I usually just flip them over so the hardened surface is being used if I don't need to change the shim ... Kaiv would know). I don't think anyone here is saying you don't know what you're doing. We all have different theories for the S54 valve train, if you see a horsepower gain from .18 to .20, then just check/adjust them more often is what I would do if I were to run tighter. The kit is cheap, your time is about free.

[davesz4mc]

Thanks!

I am always trying to learn diffrent view points on diffrent things. I do not want to say that the way I do it is better than doing it another way.

I was just asking for a preferance on too tight. If you can wiggle the feeler guage in it is a tight fit but it still fits.

One thing that might be good is to make a sticky thread with odd shim sizes people would not mid selling so those of us that want a tighter valve train have the ability to do so. Unless you can order individual odd sizes from somewhere?

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by davesz4mc

Thanks!

I am always trying to learn diffrent view points on diffrent things. I do not want to say that the way I do it is better than doing it another way.

I was just asking for a preferance on too tight. If you can wiggle the feeler guage in it is a tight fit but it still fits.

One thing that might be good is to make a sticky thread with odd shim sizes people would not mid selling so those of us that want a tighter valve train have the ability to do so. Unless you can order individual odd sizes from somewhere?

Not a bad idea. I keep them in these lil dime bags. Here's my worksheet, you can see the sizes here.

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by davesz4mc

Ok beaten to death and I guess I am not making sense.

If you could flex the feeler guage in at .18 (tight fit) then I would call it in spec and be done. Because, to step to the next size up it would be just outside of spec .19-.23=.04mm or one shim size, .18 fits nice being ideal in my book. but a snug .18 is better than a snug .23 in my book.

That depends on if your going for (your defenition, subjective) safe or performance valve adjustment.

When I say performance I adjusted my car for min spec and it changed the way the car drives and sounds. Crisper exhaust note and I actually lost a little fuel economy with the increased lift and duration. Ok so a small change on one valves (6 valves increased in shim size, all shims were replaced) but across 24 valves at 7k rpm and it makes a differance...

All this I don't know what I am doing, I was trying to ask an educated question but if you are not understanding me then I can't help you.

After adjusting valves on bikes and other cars with a solid valve train I have not seen the gap decrease to date.

You can think what you will your entitled to your opinion...

Ok, this post I understand. If I was rude previously I apologize but understand that you had me thrown off when on one hand you seemed to not know how to tell if a valve is too tight while on the other claiming you know what you're doing... I feel like I'm wasting time explaining the very basics

So again, below the minimum gap is too tight. Over the maximum too loose.
Since we're talking about the tight side; if the .18mm doesn't fit at all in the intake side then it's too tight.

I agree that tight = performance. Maybe that works well for you since you can keep a close eye on your clearances since that's just you and your own car. But again since valve clearances can both get tighter or looser over time, being so much on the tight end is not the safe choice. I assume I need not educate you of the potential risks of a valve getting too tight.

People who have me care for their car(s) and adjust their valves trust me to do a good and safe job, a job that won't potentially run the risk of a valve getting too tight, too soon; and that won't require to keep a closer eye on the valve train (ie shorter valve adj. intevals).

This may be redundant but so our readers understand: a valve clearance set towards the middle of the spec has room to evolve safely towards loose or towards tight while remaining within spec (acceptable range) for a longer time. You set your valve on the absolute tight end, it has room to get loose. None to get tight.

In any event, the people I help always have tons of great things to say about how the car feels and drives when I'm done with it

Have a great weekend (or what's left of it!)

[Tonybest]

Maybe this was answered.. sorry if so. But when do you know that your valves need adjusting? My 2008 is at 54000 kms and I do 12 to 18 track days a year since 2009.

[gcochard]

Originally Posted by Tonybest

Maybe this was answered.. sorry if so. But when do you know that your valves need adjusting? My 2008 is at 54000 kms and I do 12 to 18 track days a year since 2009.

I had a slight tick at idle, but that's not typical. When you hit inspection 1 or 2, that's when you need to get the valves adjusted. It's about a 25-30k mile interval. If your car hasn't had it yet, I would say it's due.

[danlauz]

Hello from montreal. Mine is at 34000 km and, never had this job done. I find that the idle is less smoorh since the last 5-6000 km. Should return my car On the road this week. Will see if the car ad sleep well during winter. Anybody making valve job in quebec ??