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      09-09-2016, 03:07 PM   #243
inTgr8r
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanne View Post
Glad Lang dropped into this discussion, competent advise is always welcome. Thanks.
+1, great stuff from Lang!
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      09-10-2016, 01:11 AM   #244
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There is a ton of information in here and it's all very delicate, especially in this particular situation. It seems that nothing has gone to 'normally' through the entire process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
Your new block, I imagine, now won't carry that wonderful and expensive 2 year warranty from BMW so I would expect, since the shop made some mistakes leading to its damage, that they should offer you a complete 2 year warranty on this new rebuilt engine similar to what you would have gotten for the block you paid big money for.

So your brand new block now is so damaged it cannot be used?
That's what I've been told but this hasn't been confirmed and I think it would cost the shop more money to investigate the new (or purchased) block to verify that this is in fact true. I do not know what to do about this particular scenario, as they do not want to replace to this part due to the it's expensive nature that you had mentioned above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
If you are using a 60k mile block now it should not be used with the brand new pistons you received with your other block, a hone on a 60k mile block is not the same as a bore and hone to the next oversize. I wouldn't let them do this, they are just trying to avoid buying another set of pistons.

You paid a lot to have 87mm BMW Mahle pistons in a BMW bored and honed block and now you aren't getting that, I'd be pretty upset about that. But, you're being nice and not forcing them to buy you a new BMW block. If it were me I would probably consider using an aftermarket piston at 87.5mm and boring and honing either your new BMW block or this used one they are providing to 87.5mm so you have a guaranteed straight and clean cylinder.
Could the purchased block (even with assumed damages) still be a candidate for the 87.5mm pistons? Do you believe that this would void the warranty on the block from BMW? Would you expect there to still be wear complications or increased oil consumption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
Maybe I missed the reason why they needed to get a whole new donor engine rather than try to rebuild the same engine a 2nd time.
They simply had an M3 around for spare parts that they could conveniently pull from. The vehicle seemed to be in decent shape. The motor was said to have a knock in it when they purchased it (I believe from auction). The vehicle had been salvaged if I recall correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
You asked them for a data sheet from the machine shop and I can understand them not having that, my machine shop doesn't usually give me any numbers, just a pass or fail. That being said, it's the engine assemblers job to double check everything the machine shop does. That means checking main bearing and rod bearing clearances. It sounds like if they had done this they would have seen that they had a journal that was damaged (if that was the case). I suppose they could have also had a bent crankshaft, but they should have noticed that during assembly, the crank doesn't spin well if its bent. On I-6 engines we always have these cranks straightened, they usually have slight bend to them.

If the rod was bent that would make sense considering you probably had lots of water in that first engine with the cracked cylinder wall and that will usually bend a rod, but that is once again something the machine shop should have been able to see pretty easily.

Sounds to me like it just wasn't a thorough enough job at bottom end assembly.
That's what I've discerned and the biggest question is how much damage would reoccur with a similar failure? Basically the pistons and the block were changed out, is it conclusive just by the nature of how the motor failed the 2nd time that everything should just be scrapped from that project/procedure? They also want to use a different head as mine had been resurfaced previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
What would be more of a shame is spending 16k to end up with an engine you could have bought for much less than that.

I'm sure I missed some things so correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps have them test drive the car for a day or two before picking it up next time, that is usually enough time for assembly mistakes to show up. Glad to see they are standing behind their work and getting you another engine.
They were wanting to continue test driving the car after they had it done for about a week or so and I reached a position where I simply couldn't wait for the vehicle (it was my only mode of transportation at the time) and I had to make it up to my duty station for military duty. When I picked it up there were still some concerns, he said to just keep an eye on it and go from there, we addressed a check engine light that was on when I was there but he tried to reassure me that it was nothing and the sensor had just gone weird on him. We worked with Epic to get the tune flashed on there and even test drove it several times with a new tune to ensure that everything was working properly. By the end it seemed things were going to be ok and we would come back to the one check engine light. Obviously, that's not what the actual state of things were on pickup.

You really haven't missed a whole lot through the thread, but if you do have questions please feel free to ask them and I'll do my best to answer them. I really am looking for the right course of action that is fair for both parties here and I'm scared that if I don't take the time to find the right questions to specific scenarios I wont end up with the product or services that I paid for. I just hope that this engine is what they claim it to be, and if I need to work up something for the right piston sizing, I'd rather do it now than after the car has been put back together.

Thanks again for lending me all this time Andrew, I sincerely appreciate you taking interest in the matter.
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      09-10-2016, 12:14 PM   #245
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It's absolutely outrageous to me that you paid for a brand new BMW block with a two year warranty, and now they're trying to pawn off some donor engine with 60k miles on it to you for the same price. This is AFTER waiting all this time. This conduct on their part is an absolute joke.

The worst thing that should happen to you is you get the donor engine, get back on the road, and then negotiate a refund amount in the difference between the brand new motor and this donor engine.

Your patience is far better than mine at this point, I'd already be taking legal action.
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      09-11-2016, 01:17 PM   #246
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NickyC, the primary reason I haven't gone the way of legal at this time is because I'm terrified that the car will simply never be completed if I did. Either that or there would be something that they could tie it all up in to where I would never see a completed repair or even have the opportunity to repair after that point. I do believe you're right on the other bits though, that's probably what my course of action will be should the repair go as scheduled in-so-far.
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      09-11-2016, 01:31 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsonism View Post
NickyC, the primary reason I haven't gone the way of legal at this time is because I'm terrified that the car will simply never be completed if I did. Either that or there would be something that they could tie it all up in to where I would never see a completed repair or even have the opportunity to repair after that point. I do believe you're right on the other bits though, that's probably what my course of action will be should the repair go as scheduled in-so-far.
I understand how you feel, but I think it's terrible that you're put in that situation in the first place. You paid the money, you held up your end, it's outrageous how you're being treated here. I would still contact an attorney and go for a consultation on your possible remedies here. I don't think you have anything to lose at this point, this shop is walking all over you. They've taken your kindness and patience as a sense of weakness, if I were you this would infuriate me. Playtime is over.
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      10-03-2016, 08:22 PM   #248
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Alright, here we go. Take 2.

I haven't had a chance to compare these photos to the older ones, but I will soon.



IMG_0150


IMG_0151


IMG_0152


IMG_0153


IMG_0155


IMG_0156


IMG_0157


IMG_0158


IMG_0159


IMG_0160

Thoughts? Are y'all excited? I think this puts it somewhere around the two week point but I'm not really sure. I don't believe the head is done from the machine shop, so we'll get there.
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      10-03-2016, 08:54 PM   #249
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It's nice to see you're having some progress. Congrats!
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      10-04-2016, 03:20 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsonism View Post
Could the purchased block (even with assumed damages) still be a candidate for the 87.5mm pistons? Do you believe that this would void the warranty on the block from BMW? Would you expect there to still be wear complications or increased oil consumption?
It would have to be some pretty severe damage to make the block unusable to go to 87.5mm. That's .020" of cylinder wall that would have to be bad in order to not clean up if bored and honed to the next oversize. I would think your new block could still be used by you or someone else with the next size up piston, probably even 87.25mm.

It really depends on how bent the rod was and what went through the engine. A bent rod can take a lot of material off a cylinder wall if the piston is cocked sideways and going up and down in the bore.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsonism View Post
That's what I've discerned and the biggest question is how much damage would reoccur with a similar failure? Basically the pistons and the block were changed out, is it conclusive just by the nature of how the motor failed the 2nd time that everything should just be scrapped from that project/procedure? They also want to use a different head as mine had been resurfaced previously.
I wouldn't say the original engine would have to be completely scraped but anytime you are using parts from a failed motor you have to assume all the parts are bad unless you have checked them out. Bent rods are definitely something to be concerned about along with a crankshaft that isn't straight or journals that are damaged.

They really shouldn't need to use another head, yours was just resurfaced so they should be able to just clean off the gasket material and bolt it back on unless the head was hit by a piston.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsonism View Post
They were wanting to continue test driving the car after they had it done for about a week or so and I reached a position where I simply couldn't wait for the vehicle (it was my only mode of transportation at the time) and I had to make it up to my duty station for military duty. When I picked it up there were still some concerns, he said to just keep an eye on it and go from there, we addressed a check engine light that was on when I was there but he tried to reassure me that it was nothing and the sensor had just gone weird on him. We worked with Epic to get the tune flashed on there and even test drove it several times with a new tune to ensure that everything was working properly. By the end it seemed things were going to be ok and we would come back to the one check engine light. Obviously, that's not what the actual state of things were on pickup.
what was the check engine light for?
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      10-04-2016, 01:14 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
It would have to be some pretty severe damage to make the block unusable to go to 87.5mm. That's .020" of cylinder wall that would have to be bad in order to not clean up if bored and honed to the next oversize. I would think your new block could still be used by you or someone else with the next size up piston, probably even 87.25mm.

It really depends on how bent the rod was and what went through the engine. A bent rod can take a lot of material off a cylinder wall if the piston is cocked sideways and going up and down in the bore.

I wouldn't say the original engine would have to be completely scraped but anytime you are using parts from a failed motor you have to assume all the parts are bad unless you have checked them out. Bent rods are definitely something to be concerned about along with a crankshaft that isn't straight or journals that are damaged.

They really shouldn't need to use another head, yours was just resurfaced so they should be able to just clean off the gasket material and bolt it back on unless the head was hit by a piston.
I'll ask them some more questions about the original block and head. The original principle still holds value to me from when I went into this, use as many or as much of the original stock parts as possible. Hopefully I'll talk with them tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LangRacingDevelopment View Post
what was the check engine light for?
If I remember right, it was for the crankshaft ventilation sensor. I don't remember the particular failure code. I'll dig in some emails to see if I have it.
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      10-05-2016, 02:04 AM   #252
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Oh my goodness. Arsonism, I am SO sorry to see how this has gone. I commented in this thread nearly a year ago, after a new block was en route. I saw this thread had been bumped up a few times but didn't give it much thought. I just read this from start to finish...

Over my 2 years of Z ownership I've gone through a few cases of not having my car for extended periods, 2x due to shop negligence (IMO). I am a little late to the party now but I can all but guarantee they saw you as a non-paying customer, thus just pushed the project aside. It's a shame, and may not even be intentional, but the likely truth. I learned this the hard way as well - "It's at this shop, it's at that shop, etc. etc." were excuses I too heard. I didn't have too much $ tied up in my issue, it wasn't as long of a timeframe, and I had another car to drive so it was easier to let it slide but I know how it can eat away at you. The legal approach seems like a good idea given the $ involved, but given the recent posts it at least looks like things are properly moving along. I 100% understand the fear of putting too much pressure, them having no legal obligation, so having fear of receiving a subpar product back; this part was eerily comparable to my situation. It's a real shame that some people who seem like standup folk can't be trusted, regardless of their intentions and words. You live, you learn; 10 years down the line this may all be laughable in retrospect. Due to the random issues I had I got the vanity plate CURSDZ but your car may be more deserving

A silver lining to all of this - the E86 M has depreciated very slowly (if at all?) so at least this doesn't need to be factored into things.

If you ever end up in Orange County, CA (who knows, god forbid future issues, maybe your car will end up at Lang) shoot me a PM, you definitely deserve a beer (or two) for this one. Thanks for your service as well.

BTW, thanks LangRacingDevelopment for dropping in and lending public advise for a non-customer. Still appreciate the work you did on my car in the past
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      10-05-2016, 08:34 PM   #253
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Good to see you again tiltmode43, it's pretty strange to see the time line for all of this and it almost makes me a little happy that I started a thread for it to really keep the events in some chronological order.

I'm sorry to hear that you've also gone through similar experiences. I have to say, having another car to drive around definitely makes things a little easier, but unfortunately in my case it's like paying for a brand new M car at this point while driving a basic (and worn down) 3 series. I wish it wasn't the case, but that's what I've wound up with for a while. I suppose I'm really just grateful that all things in my life haven't stopped around this vehicle, but I definitely feel set back by it.

I hope you're right about being able to look back and laugh at it. I think I'll hold my head up having known I got through everything and that I came up with the funds to keep the car. That's a thought that's been long removed and is in the back of my mind, considering that's how I felt around February. I wonder if it'll be the same when I pick it up this time or if it's going to be like another... "We gotcha again!" moment. I'm definitely running short on emotions behind the whole ordeal just to refrain from entering a world of negativity. I know I'll be happy to drive the Z again, and to really get out and do some events in the area with the car, but it's hard to think that way when I have no idea when I'll be getting the car back. Seriously miss the car world these days.

If I make my way out to Cali I'll definitely take you up on that. Maybe it'll be in the Z! If not then I'll surely be out that way to visit the national and state parks... That's a dream that hasn't happened yet either so I'll be looking your way sooner or later.
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      10-29-2016, 08:52 PM   #254
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So I got word that this arrived on Friday last week:

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      10-30-2016, 06:21 AM   #255
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Purty.
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      10-30-2016, 10:14 PM   #256
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Purty.
I sure thought so. I'm a little concerned with what looks like rust though.
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      10-31-2016, 02:50 AM   #257
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Purty.
I sure thought so. I'm a little concerned with what looks like rust though.
I'm not seeing rust in the pic (I'm assuming you mean the head). The head is aluminum so that has me a bit puzzled as well. Was the rust in question on the block in the other pics?
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      10-31-2016, 11:05 AM   #258
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You mean the "rust" in the water channels? Don't worry about it.
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      10-31-2016, 09:45 PM   #259
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Yeah, suppose that's all, figured the machinist knew what he was doing but at the same time I wanted the peace of mind. Thank you Westersund
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      11-01-2016, 04:48 AM   #260
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man, I've got my fingers crossed for you mate. ...
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      11-08-2016, 11:51 PM   #261
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man, I've got my fingers crossed for you mate. ...
Thanks bud, more to come around the Thanksgiving time frame. Hopefully everything will be together but I'm not sure if they'll be working on test drives and whatnot. I'll keep y'all posted. I still need to make a visit up there sometime soon.
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      12-01-2016, 11:07 PM   #262
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Almost another month passed and this is where she sits right now. I feel like every time I'm about to break down on this and just go off... they manage to shoot me an update. It's eery almost.




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      12-02-2016, 08:22 AM   #263
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It's like they're working on it about an hour a month at the glacier like pace this has been moving at.
When (if?) they're finally done I hope it does turn out to have been a first rate rebuild!
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      12-02-2016, 12:47 PM   #264
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hold in their thats really close to firing up!!
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