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      03-05-2012, 11:26 AM   #23
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my personal suggest would be cryogenically treat your exhaust hub and replace your cam bolts before tracking. Anyone break may grenade your engine.
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      03-05-2012, 11:32 AM   #24
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This is my only vehicle. From what I've read, there's different types of track events. I plan on just sticking to open track with point-bys for now. Seems pretty safe to me. Am I wrong?
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      03-05-2012, 11:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
This is my only vehicle. From what I've read, there's different types of track events. I plan on just sticking to open track with point-bys for now. Seems pretty safe to me. Am I wrong?
Depends on the club. Some clubs have more strict rules than others. For Seattle area, BMWCCA and PCA runs very safe events. I've heard Audi club is a little bit more loose.

Let me give you an example, if you spin twice in day (not session) in BMWCCA or PCA event, you're out. We always have corner workers with SCCA experience in every single corner. If you drive in an aggressive way, do stupid things, not drive on school line, etc, they see you immediately and you get black flagged. I've witnessed them noticing not properly latched hood. They're good!
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      03-05-2012, 01:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by partlowr View Post
My only question would be if this is your daily driver can you really afford to risk wadding it up? Do you rely on this car to get you to and from your job? My many years of road racing superbikes has taught me if something can go wrong it most likely will and lots of shit happens on a racetrack that are completely out of your control...even the best and most careful drivers in the world are not going to avoid being rear-ended by the guy behind you that has brake failure, or the two guys that wad it up 100 ft ahead of you and one of their wheels become unattached and suddenly end up in your front seat. If you do not have alternative transportation I would suggest limiting your track use with this car.
Very good points. And I saw an on track incident in the open group on turn 15 on Saturday. (Turn 15 at Thunderhill is best taken at 7/10s or less IMO--put a wheel off there and you'll find the pit wall--and I never run hard at that point on the track--everywhere else there's lots off runoff room and track out room as well.) Some on this forum either had or seen similar things on track.

On the other hand, if it's a well run organization, with good flaggers, safety minded, and strict, I personally feel a bit safer on track than off, especially if I consider the drive to and from the track on the interstate. Now that scares the **** out of me. I've seen cars break their suspensions, spin, and fly off the road into the bushes at 85 MPH right in front of me (had the skills to avoid it--but OMG). My wife was forced off the road by a jacked up pickup truck on the way back from a track day. People drive 85+ in the rain inches from your bumper. And lastly, coming home from one last summer I had someone blow a red light and almost t-bone me.

The thing is, any kind off driving is a risk. While things happen on track they also happen off (as noted above). True, not always at 100 MPH+ speeds, but for the most part you have focused and attentive people who are actually trying to drive at the track. Someone does something stupid and they're black flagged and reeled in or if serious enough they're out. I can't say the same for 95% of people on the road these days (I wish I had a black and a meatball flag for daily use). Yes, things can happen like two cars getting in a tangle in front of you on the track, but then again, it can happen off the track as well. Texting, cell phones, inattentive driving, aggressive driving, poor driving skills, etc. It's scary on the road.

If you plan on really pushing, and running 9/10s or something, then get a track car. If you get hooked consider a track car. If you want to see if you like the track, find a good safe outfit and have a go or two. See what you think about safety and risk.

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Originally Posted by Erhan View Post
Depends on the club. Some clubs have more strict rules than others. For Seattle area, BMWCCA and PCA runs very safe events. I've heard Audi club is a little bit more loose.

Let me give you an example, if you spin twice in day (not session) in BMWCCA or PCA event, you're out. We always have corner workers with SCCA experience in every single corner. If you drive in an aggressive way, do stupid things, not drive on school line, etc, they see you immediately and you get black flagged. I've witnessed them noticing not properly latched hood. They're good!
I hear good things about HOD. BMWCCA gets great marks--car control clinic they run is a great way to start too. And in my "solo" session with NCRC (beginner level, 1 up from their "driving school") there are download sessions. Safety is enforced: someone who was running a bit to close in front of me was immediately blacked flagged. I'm going to give HOD a try the next time, but so far with NCRC there's been no tolerance for anything unsafe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
This is my only vehicle. From what I've read, there's different types of track events. I plan on just sticking to open track with point-bys for now. Seems pretty safe to me. Am I wrong?
See my comments above.

Last edited by Finnegan; 03-05-2012 at 01:32 PM..
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      03-05-2012, 01:48 PM   #27
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Cool. I've heard good things about NCRC from multiple sources. I'll go with them first.

And I agree. I just can't imagine the track being any more dangerous than everyday driving, where I'm in 100% defense mode. 7/10s is fine for me. It actually amazes me how "well" some of these maniacs drive in their non-sporty (and probably unmaintained) cars on the freeway. I can be pushing my Z4MC around a sweeping turn at about 6/10s and there will be an old Camry with missing hubcaps blow past me. Unbelievable. It gives me confidence that my car can handle a lot more than what I'm probably willing to push for awhile.
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      03-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #28
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Everything said here has it's place.
After three years of tracking the car, my take on safety is this and some may disagree: until you get up into the 'upper intermediate/advance' stages, you are relatively safe. The 'upper intermediate/advance' drivers are at the most risk. Your skills are not as good as you think and you become too comfortable for your skill set. You are still susceptible to the 'red mist' syndrome and the adrenalin rush. The more experienced driving instructors can weigh in on this topic. Seat time is the only thing that matters. The more you have, the better you are.

Learning your car is the most important thing right now. How it behaves when doing certain things. How your tires sound and or feel when you are getting to the limit of adhesion. Starting to understand the physics of what that car is doing, eg. why is the car doing this... oh, I did this so it has to do this.....
Your first four or five outings, you are going to feel rushed in the cockpit and your field of vision is going to be narrow. This changes with time. You start to instinctively get your eyes 'up and out' to see what is going on around that turn or way down the track. Then you start planning what you are going to do with the brakes, downshifting, turning. Looking for those reference markings, lining up with a distant tower to get the proper line to enter a turn. At VIR, turn 12 (Oak Tree) there is a eight inch section of the gator that has flaked off. If you can see it, that is your turn in point. That took me a year just to see the damn thing. More time to get the car setup to actually turn at that point. What I attempt to explain to my co-workers who don't understand is that everything I have learned to do on the track translates to what I am doing on the street.

What the others have said about adding go fast parts for your first year or so is spot on. Don't do it. Yes, it helps the car but it can retard your own learning. These car don't really need that much help. Until you really understand what is going on with the car, you will have a hard time really knowing if they did any good. I have resisted the temptation to add parts.

Just don't get down when some Z06 comes blasting past you on the straights.. He's got another 100 horses than you and you can get him on the corners...if your smooth and drive the proper line.... fast car slow hands, slow car fast hands.

This sport can be addictive. It sure as hell is fun...
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      03-05-2012, 03:49 PM   #29
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In my rather biased opinion, you should consider first and foremost taking BMW CCA Golden Gate's car control clinic first before you consider taking any serious on track events. It will give you the very basics of how to handle your car in adverse situations, and give you a new perspective on your own driving skills. Once you have that baseline reset, it will be far easier learning how to drive fast on the track.

The second thing I will recommend, is for at least your first 3-5 events, to do it with a reputable organization that INSIST on putting an instructor in your car, and every other noob's car. Not some that will make it optional to you, because, in your first half a dozen events is where you will build the foundation in which to learn from, and if it's not set properly, you will find it progressively harder to progress as a driver later on because all the bad habits has set. In addition, if they only provide instructor to those who ask for it, what happens to those other noob drivers that don't? They're a danger to YOU as a driver on the track at the same time.

The third thing I will recommend, is to buy on-track insurance from a place like Lockton Affinity (not affiliated) for a car that you daily drive that's relatively new like the MZ4 Coupe, where you can not afford to write off any incident. No, it's not cheap (ranges from $120-250 per day/event and more based on stated value of the car), but neither is wadding up your car, be it your fault or someone else's.
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      03-05-2012, 03:57 PM   #30
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Hack is correct. I am sorry to say I was remiss in not stating this.
Every event I have attended on the track, unless you were signed off as a solo driver (eg, you have been doing this for years), you had to have an instructor in the car, unless that instructor signed you off solo, for the remainder of that day.
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      03-05-2012, 04:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
In my rather biased opinion, you should consider first and foremost taking BMW CCA Golden Gate's car control clinic first before you consider taking any serious on track events. It will give you the very basics of how to handle your car in adverse situations, and give you a new perspective on your own driving skills. Once you have that baseline reset, it will be far easier learning how to drive fast on the track.

The second thing I will recommend, is for at least your first 3-5 events, to do it with a reputable organization that INSIST on putting an instructor in your car, and every other noob's car. Not some that will make it optional to you, because, in your first half a dozen events is where you will build the foundation in which to learn from, and if it's not set properly, you will find it progressively harder to progress as a driver later on because all the bad habits has set. In addition, if they only provide instructor to those who ask for it, what happens to those other noob drivers that don't? They're a danger to YOU as a driver on the track at the same time.

The third thing I will recommend, is to buy on-track insurance from a place like Lockton Affinity (not affiliated) for a car that you daily drive that's relatively new like the MZ4 Coupe, where you can not afford to write off any incident. No, it's not cheap (ranges from $120-250 per day/event and more based on stated value of the car), but neither is wadding up your car, be it your fault or someone else's.
I did 3 car control clinics over 2 years time period, while I was also volunteering in car control clinics (course engineer, station director etc). When I decided that I was "ready" for my first HPDS, I was much better off than many people. Much more comfortable with my car, controls, smoothness, looking ahead, and with speed (not that I was fast, but you don't want to be the guy doing 20mph through a fast sweeper). Still I was a newbie, but a little better prepared.

The amount of stuff that happens around you, and amount of stuff you need to do is so much (and new), I'd be lost without an instructor. When I was signed off solo, it was a tense moment initially... getting into the track by myself, crazy!! But we have good instructors here (it was Jim Millet who signed me off solo), they know when they can sign you off solo...
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      03-05-2012, 05:10 PM   #32
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Both The Hack and Shipkiller have far more experience than I do, so I'd weight that into decision making. Both have experience and solid points to back up their positions. There's a lot to consider there and it's good advice.

I can't say enough good things about the Car Control Clinic, which BMWCCA GGC runs before going. It's a great tool and invaluable learning experience that teaches you about you, your car, and imparts skills you can use when dealing with situations such as those I described in my earlier post about craziness on the streets. I think everyone should take one or more of these clinics even if they never see the track.
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      03-05-2012, 05:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
Very good points. And I saw an on track incident in the open group on turn 15 on Saturday. (Turn 15 at Thunderhill is best taken at 7/10s or less IMO--put a wheel off there and you'll find the pit wall--and I never run hard at that point on the track--everywhere else there's lots off runoff room and track out room as well.) Some on this forum either had or seen similar things on track.

On the other hand, if it's a well run organization, with good flaggers, safety minded, and strict, I personally feel a bit safer on track than off, especially if I consider the drive to and from the track on the interstate. Now that scares the **** out of me. I've seen cars break their suspensions, spin, and fly off the road into the bushes at 85 MPH right in front of me (had the skills to avoid it--but OMG). My wife was forced off the road by a jacked up pickup truck on the way back from a track day. People drive 85+ in the rain inches from your bumper. And lastly, coming home from one last summer I had someone blow a red light and almost t-bone me.

The thing is, any kind off driving is a risk. While things happen on track they also happen off (as noted above). True, not always at 100 MPH+ speeds, but for the most part you have focused and attentive people who are actually trying to drive at the track. Someone does something stupid and they're black flagged and reeled in or if serious enough they're out. I can't say the same for 95% of people on the road these days (I wish I had a black and a meatball flag for daily use). Yes, things can happen like two cars getting in a tangle in front of you on the track, but then again, it can happen off the track as well. Texting, cell phones, inattentive driving, aggressive driving, poor driving skills, etc. It's scary on the road.

If you plan on really pushing, and running 9/10s or something, then get a track car. If you get hooked consider a track car. If you want to see if you like the track, find a good safe outfit and have a go or two. See what you think about safety and risk.



I hear good things about HOD. BMWCCA gets great marks--car control clinic they run is a great way to start too. And in my "solo" session with NCRC (beginner level, 1 up from their "driving school") there are download sessions. Safety is enforced: someone who was running a bit to close in front of me was immediately blacked flagged. I'm going to give HOD a try the next time, but so far with NCRC there's been no tolerance for anything unsafe.



See my comments above.
Some of your points are good points but it is appearent that you have not spent much time on a race track (that's not meant as an insult). I have seen stuff on tracks that would make your head spin, from the simplest little fender benders to a guy dying on the track who hit a friggin deer on a motorcycle(yes, a deer!), anyone that thinks they are in control of themselves or others on a track is completely clueless of the shit that can go down. The OP taking his daily driver/only means of transportation on a race track is just asking for trouble. Fact, most track events are well run and safety is the number one priority. Fact, most people that track their cars are better drivers than 99% of the drivers on the publc roads. Fact, the race track is a safer environment at 100+mph than the public roads at 50mph.

Now throw all those facts to the wind and ponder these thoughts as if your were the OP. Fact, your auto insurance policy will not cover "racing" or "on track" incidents should he get plowed into or plow into somebody else. Therefore the accident he might get into on a public road gets covered and they throw him in a Hyundai rental car for a month while they make the repairs while the accident he gets into on the track is not covered and he's screwed and riding his Trek mountain bike to work for a while. This does not even take into account the added stress that aggresive track driving takes on the vehicle and its components. The more you track your car the quicker stuff wears and you need to have the bank roll to do preventive maintanance on increased intervals and pay for parts that are going to wear out and break due to track use. The OP need to ask himself the following, "how is my life going to be affected if I total my car on the race track?" Before he worrys about making track mods to his car.

I'm a car guy, I get it, I love tracking cars and bikes, I also race my ATV once or twice a year and I always have to ask myself "how will my life be affected if I break my neck", life is full of risks and I am all about taking risks but now that I am 40 years old I have learned to make "calculated risks" that minimize any negatives that might arise should I break a leg or my neck. I have enough money set aside and disability insurance that if something happened I would be OK. A calculated risk the OP might want to make is investing $4k in a 10 year old Mazda Miata for a track car and keep his daily driver to get him to and from work and date night. My Z4 is a 3rd car, if I wad it on a track oh well, I would still be making it into the office Monday morning. I would not be doing anything more than autocrossing it if it were my only car that I relied on for transportation to and from work.
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      03-05-2012, 05:49 PM   #34
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There's been 5 cars written off at events I've attended over the past four years... 5 Cars/20 events.

323
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Two of these were at BMWCC events with instructors in the car...

The Lamborghini was at a Vendor event at Mosport - he had a Porsche CC Instructor with him.
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      03-05-2012, 06:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
In my rather biased opinion, you should consider first and foremost taking BMW CCA Golden Gate's car control clinic first before you consider taking any serious on track events. It will give you the very basics of how to handle your car in adverse situations, and give you a new perspective on your own driving skills. Once you have that baseline reset, it will be far easier learning how to drive fast on the track.

The second thing I will recommend, is for at least your first 3-5 events, to do it with a reputable organization that INSIST on putting an instructor in your car, and every other noob's car. Not some that will make it optional to you, because, in your first half a dozen events is where you will build the foundation in which to learn from, and if it's not set properly, you will find it progressively harder to progress as a driver later on because all the bad habits has set. In addition, if they only provide instructor to those who ask for it, what happens to those other noob drivers that don't? They're a danger to YOU as a driver on the track at the same time.

The third thing I will recommend, is to buy on-track insurance from a place like Lockton Affinity (not affiliated) for a car that you daily drive that's relatively new like the MZ4 Coupe, where you can not afford to write off any incident. No, it's not cheap (ranges from $120-250 per day/event and more based on stated value of the car), but neither is wadding up your car, be it your fault or someone else's.
Great point about the on track insurance, however the per event prices you quoted seem a little low, I have never been quoted under $200 a day for this type of coverage.

Also of note to the OP, everyone signs a no fault waiver for track days meaning if somebody hits you and totals your car they are not liable for any damages and if you nail somebody you are not liable for those damages so this goes back to my earlier statement regarding it not mattering if you are the best driver on the track, if the noob showing off driving over his head slams into you, guess what, you're still stuck with the bill for your car. Taking a daily driver out on a racetrack is just asking for trouble. If you want to play be prepared to pay.
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      03-05-2012, 06:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
If you want to play be prepared to pay.
Well said...
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      03-05-2012, 06:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Great point about the on track insurance, however the per event prices you quoted seem a little low, I have never been quoted under $200 a day for this type of coverage.
Who you usually run with will affect said policy, as well as the stated value of the vehicle. It will also vary from track to track.
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      03-06-2012, 08:37 PM   #38
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As for mounting tires my company actually provides the track side support for the NASA Florida region. So depending on the club and the region they may also have on track side tire support for mounting and balancing tires at the track.

That being said there is no need for anything better than street tires until you move up. The only reason you may want a separate set is because you will eat them up at the track.

As for safety I cannot speak for other clubs or other regions since we deal mainly with NASA FL. However we have gone to every single event for the past 3 years or so and I can count on one hand how many incidents have occurred with HPDE drivers. Usually it's someone going off or hitting a tire wall because they are over driving the car and not listening to their instructor.
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      03-06-2012, 09:20 PM   #39
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Leave traction control on for your first 2-3 events. 99% chance nothing bad will happen.
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      03-07-2012, 04:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Leave traction control on for your first 2-3 events. 99% chance nothing bad will happen.
Amen to that for the first couple. You'll get wondering what it feels like with it off, but you'll soon be ass over tea-kettle if you're pushing too hard too soon. Our cars can bite (in a good way )
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