Z4M vs. 335i "feeling"

[mcacciola]

Hello everyone;
I currently lease a 6 speed manual 335i (twin turbo) with 300Lbs. of torque and 300HP. Needless to say that the feeling of the torque is outstanding on acceleration at almost any speed (even at higher gears).

In 10 months the lease is gone and I'm currently thinking to buy my next car to take care if it, and keep it for longer time and I'm thinking to get an M Coupe.

My question to you guys, or perhaps Z4M owners is to share feeling or even better if you ever drove the 335i and give me your feedback and/or point of view of not only the performance, but also the actual feeling at lower and high speeds. No need to said that even though I truly love this current turbo engine I'm consider myself a purist and I guess there is nothing like the real thing.

This specific concern is based that in the last few years I was lucky enough to get every 3 years a new BMW with a higher HP and torque, starting from the beloved 1996 Z3, 1.9cc. , a Z4 2.5, etc, and now ending with the 335i. (never had an M)

So at this point I'm almost set to move to the Z4M that I understand that is (American figures) 262 lb. and 330 hp but also considering that has less weight and less wind resistant design.

Another factor is the 0-60 that "officially" BMW states that the Z4M can get in 4.9 vs. de 335i that can make it in 5.3, But!.... many magazines and forums states that the 335i in many occasions did it in 4.9 or 4.8 (stock of course), and I don't know if is the case of the Z4M that also improved the always conservative numbers that BMW make public.


Bottom line:
I really want to keep the little MCoupe for many years and was wondering if I'll make myself disappointed at the time will press the gas. If anyone can share their experiences with both cars or any info that can make my mind a little clear, will be great appreciated.

thanks everyone!

[Hawkeye]

The 335i might SEEM faster because of the turbos but there is nothing that can compare to the Z4M when you get the revs up Cornering is much more fun in the Z4M as well. That is about all I can say as I have just test drove a 335i.

[nmulax]

Hawk's right... the handling is also night to day. I had an E90 330i for two years, before buying my Z4M, and the Z feels (and is) so much sportier. It's like being on rails.

As for power, they're different in their power delivery. The N54 has that great torque, but doesn't feel as powerful as it really is. The S54 is a high-strung kick in the ass. If there's one thing that BMW does best, it's the high-revving inline 6. The S54 is the pinnacle of that engine design.

[Mikewarlover]

I just put a deposit down on the M roadster coming from an E92 328. The first time in the roadster the feeling from the e92 is night and day. I have often driven the 335 both dinaned and stock cause almost everyone of my friend has it. Honestly the 335 can't be compared to the 335 its like totally different cars. The roadster feels raw, sounds raw and handles like a dream. The 335 is very fast but just not exciting enough, i mean it is a laugh everytime i drive it and i have a lot of fun but in the end u never get that sports car feeling. Also i believe in a drag race the M would be considerablly faster than the 335 stock at the top end. Cause as we all noe that 335 is faster than E46 M3 off the line and eventually the M3 pulls into a one car lead. The coupe can pull another half to a car's lead to the M3 so really u can't compare 335 to M roadster or coupe. If you track the car the M will be miles ahead of the 335 even a 410hp tuned one and if u watched top gear the M roadster did a lap time of 1minute 26 which is faster than a cayman s, lambo gallardo, ferrari 575, aston martin. So i am sure you will be satisfied with the power. Just one last thing the M has decent modding potential too, with 5 grand u can expect a hp gain from 30--45hp gain.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by mcacciola

My question to you guys, or perhaps Z4M owners is to share feeling or even better if you ever drove the 335i and give me your feedback and/or point of view of not only the performance, but also the actual feeling at lower and high speeds. No need to said that even though I truly love this current turbo engine I'm consider myself a purist and I guess there is nothing like the real thing.

Take a look over to the left and you'll see I'm probably one of the better qualified to answer your question.

In short one feels like a precise instrument that goes where you steer it and feels tight. The other is a sloppy boat that goes where it's going to go and feels loose.

This doesnt just include ride, it includes; throttle response, shift feel, turn in/rigidity, seating position, cornering, the seat itself (firm but not uncomfortable vs sinking into mush) everything. Z4 also feels more planted at both low and high speeds.


The 335 is faster, it feels faster and is faster (acceleration wise), by a hair, but it is.


All you need to do is drive an M coupe for a day, and then get back in a 335, you will get it. It doesn't really work going from the 335 into the M coupe, but get back in the 335 and you'll be like "Wow wtf is this crap"

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by mcacciola

Another factor is the 0-60 that "officially" BMW states that the Z4M can get in 4.9 vs. de 335i that can make it in 5.3, But!.... many magazines and forums states that the 335i in many occasions did it in 4.9 or 4.8 (stock of course), and I don't know if is the case of the Z4M that also improved the always conservative numbers that BMW make.

Why on earth is this even a "factor"? Are you interested in stopwatch times, or the driving experience? One's fast as hell, the other is also fast as hell. Beyond that, completely different driving experience in each and other major differences (ability to haul 4 people in the 335, etc).

For cripes sakes, don't make your decision on numbers from a magazine or even from BMW. Drive both, evaluate the experience in each, weigh other factors such as insurance cost, the need (or not) to haul more than 2 people, etc. Then go with your heart. Good luck!

[Z4HN]

Originally Posted by O-cha

The 335 is faster, it feels faster and is faster (acceleration wise), by a hair, but it is.

What you really mean is "quick" and not "fast". In the NA, both the Z4M & 335i are limited to 155MPH from the factory so they're equally fast. If you're talking about acceleration, "quick" is the word to describe it.

And the M-coupe IS quicker than the 335i.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Z4HN

And the M-coupe IS quicker than the 335i.

Whatever you say.

[Z4HN]

lol 335i fanboys. They're becoming just like the dilusional 350Z owners who thought their cars were quicker than the E46 M3.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Z4HN

lol 335i fanboys. They're becoming just like the dilusional 350Z owners who thought their cars were quicker than the E46 M3.

You're an idiot if you think I'm a 335 fanboy, I'm selling the car and think its a piece of shit compared to the M coupe. But it's a fact that its "quicker" than the M coupe.


That would make you the fanboy for ignoring reasoning and data.

[Z4HN]

I'm supposed to take reasonings regarding automatives seriously from someone who couldn't even differentiate "quick" and "fast"?

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by mcacciola

\So at this point I'm almost set to move to the Z4M that I understand that is (American figures) 262 lb. and 330 hp but also considering that has less weight and less wind resistant design.

Another factor is the 0-60 that "officially" BMW states that the Z4M can get in 4.9 vs. de 335i that can make it in 5.3, But!.... many magazines and forums states that the 335i in many occasions did it in 4.9 or 4.8 (stock of course), and I don't know if is the case of the Z4M that also improved the always conservative numbers that BMW make public.

I can't really imagine anyone being disappointed when going full throttle in the Z4M, especially with the Sport button on. It makes a great noise and has excellent response.

As far as the 335i/Z4M acceleration numbers, it's always struck me as odd. German car companies are notoriously conservative about official numbers because the laws are different there and customers have to be able to consistently hit the claimed numbers themselves, no "professional driver" disclaimer. So when they said the E46 M3 could do 0-60 in 5.0secs, no one was really surprised that magazines consistently got 4.7 or 4.8. Yet the official time for the Z4MC is 4.8secs, it weighs less with the same engine and gearing, and I'm damned if I can recall anyone in the press doing better, and they often claim to do worse. So while everyone will easily believe the 335i can do .5sec better than the factory time, which is equal to the Z4Ms factory time, no one believes the Z4M is faster than the factory time, like every other BMW.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by O-cha

The 335 is faster, it feels faster and is faster (acceleration wise), by a hair, but it is.

Well, wrong. Engine torque isn't the same as total torque on the road. Torque applied to the road is what makes cars accelerate. Gearing is a torque multiplier, and that is what determines how much torque actually meets the road, which propels the car. With transmission gearing and final drive taken into consideration (tire circumference is negligable), the Z4 M puts down more torque to the ground than the 335i in all 6 gears (135i is different due to smaller tire circumference...the Z4 M bests the torque in 1st thru 4th, dead even in 5th, and slightly under in 6th). Gearing matters!!!

There's also vehicle weight, and the Z4 M is lighter, and makes more horsepower, mostly geared shorter, and revs 1,000 rpms longer. These are all things which aid acceleration. In addition, with the N54 you shift earlier and earlier with each next gear as holding the gears is a disadvantage with the severe power drop. With that, optium speed in gear isn't realized. With the Z4 M, the ideal shift points are at redline with the exception of 5th to 6th, where it's 500 revs sooner. It is impossible for the 335i to out accelerate a Z4 M. Period. However, tire grip is a factor and that point might favor the 335i due to BMWs poor tire choice for the Z4 M. But the Z4 M's LSD should help make up for it.

Stop being clouded by PEAK crank numbers, and quit taking magazine stats (which are climate corrected) as any kind of standardized measurement!!!!

Oh, and I've logged 4,000 miles in a 135i (which is faster than a 335i) and can tell you neither is as quick as the Z4 M. People are too tainted and preconditioned by looking at dyno graphs (which they can't translate to acceleration), and peak hp/torque figures, which are as much marketing as anything else.

Botomline line is the N54 feels quick due to it's turbo rush at low end, which is where most people spend on the rev counter. In order to go fast, you need rpms (more the better) and strong hp/torque on top and that's not N54 territory (torque charts prove this). You also need the right gear ratios to take advantage of everything, and mechanical grip. The only disappointing feature of the Z4 M is the tires, and that's easily rectified.

[Dammmittt]

I'll say this, stock for stock, the Z4M is "quicker" car. As everyone else has said, it's lighter, makes more HP, and there have been plenty of comparisons.

The 335 is easier to mod into an even "quicker" car. Turbo tuning doesn't cost much, and just plug and play and you get an extra bucket of HP. The Z4M takes a little more effort, but with a few mods I don't think it'd be difficult to keep it "quicker" than 335. I think more Z4M owners are happy with how the car is straight out of the box, and don't need more power than they have to begin with.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

I'll say this, stock for stock, the Z4M is "quicker" car. As everyone else has said, it's lighter, makes more HP, and there have been plenty of comparisons.

The 335 is easier to mod into an even "quicker" car. Turbo tuning doesn't cost much, and just plug and play and you get an extra bucket of HP. The Z4M takes a little more effort, but with a few mods I don't think it'd be difficult to keep it "quicker" than 335. I think more Z4M owners are happy with how the car is straight out of the box, and don't need more power than they have to begin with.

Hmmm, it's easier to get higher peak numbers but they come at a price to the upper end power where a quality company would tone boost down considerably to keep the engine from a meltdown. Here again, peak numbers don't tell the whole story. Especially if power is falling off dramatically as the rpms climb. More important than advertising dyno charts are real world road comparisons (0-60, 1/4 mile, roll on comparisons, etc.). No one goes down that road but that's all that is important. Unless people are modding their cars for paper only comparisons. Personally due to the N54's power delivery characteristics and propensity to overheat, performance mods made to increase peak numbers may not translate to acceleration across the whole rev range as much as one would think. The problem is the car is still producing exponetially less horsepower and torque as the rpms pass the mid third of the range. With that ideal shift points still become earlier and earlier. The N54's performance is very deceptive, and tuning companies don't help matters with how they wave their peak numbers flags. I think there's also a point of too much low end torque, especially if it makes the tires break traction at some peaky point.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by mcacciola

Bottom line:
I really want to keep the little MCoupe for many years and was wondering if I'll make myself disappointed at the time will press the gas. If anyone can share their experiences with both cars or any info that can make my mind a little clear, will be great appreciated.

Comparing the power delivery characteristics of the N54 to the S54 isn't such a simple thing. They both can spin the rev counter quick. The S54 does it through very efficient breathing including individual throttle bodies (ITB) per cylinder, a few more cc's as well, and a high state of tune for box stock. The N54 of course uses two small turbos to make up for a big gap in engine design, strength, engine speed capability, etc. It really boils down to how you like an engine to delivery its power. In street conditions, most often you're mainly using midrange power. The N54 is good in this territory thanks to the turbos. The S54 still wants to rev a bit to get the most out of it. But it has plenty of torque thanks to the lower gearing and is every bit as fast, if not faster. The more rpms you use, the more the S54 excels. Plus, the throttle response is instant thanks to the ITBs, provided you're not stomping on the throttle in top gear at 30 mph. The N54 doens't like to work that hard either. But as for being disappointed. That I can't imagine. It's a race motor, and has all the good characteristics and qualities as such. The N54 has a strong mid punch, but that's about it.

[thekurgan]

Having just come from a 335i, even with the Dinan State II, I can tell you that there is nothing like normal aspiration for a car, and the Z4M is no exception. The throttle response in the N54 isn't anywhere near close to that of the S54, at any rpm. The 335i also begins to fade close to redline, probably by engine design as it has hydraulic lifters as opposed to the solid lifters of the S54. The N54 is an engine for the street, the S54 is designed for the rigors of a track.

[mcacciola]

Thank you all; specially to MVF4Rrider who gave me a "pro" technical description and a rationale explanation of the issue.
I think I make my mind now and my thoughts are more clear about it. The 335i was my first Turbo and in the other hand I never owned an M, so I guess will be a great experience.
For no reason was intended to compare apples to apples, I know about handling, cornering, extra room , 2 more seats, etc,.... I'm also not a drag racer...It was only the fact to clarify the "feeling" of the engine and at the end of the day to still be able to left behind some Porsches :-)

[MVF4Rrider]

Glad to help. It still kills me how much emphasis is placed on peak numbers and dyno graphs. If it's a smiliar curve, just higher, that's great. I've seen many dynos of "chipped" and modded N54s where the curve was anything but smooth, peaked even earlier, and dropped like a brick in the last 2500 rpms. But the end result is a car that will more easily bark the rear wheels and I think that's enough to entertain most.

Ultimately you start with a goal, such as shaving a half-second off 0-60 times. There are multiple paths to meet this goal...not all of which require motor mods. A shorter final gear alone will almost meet it. The 3.91 for example delivers 8% more torque to the road no matter the rpm or gear. The 4.10 delivers a whopping 13% across the rev range and should come close to meeting that goal, or exceeding it! Extremely lightweight wheels and gripper tires will improve acceleration, and aid braking and cornering too. On the motor side, software, headers/cats, lightweight flywheels, intakes mods like the RPI create a measureable boost in torque/hp. All but the flywheel have a variable power increase effect across the rpm range. The flywheel doesn't add power, but does allow the engine to rev quicker, which translates to quicker acceleration.

My goals for my car don't involve all these things, at least not all now. I've got the RPI ram air kit. Next I'll get ESS software this winter to smooth out the power, bump it up a bit, and eliminate the top speed limiter. Then the 3.91 final gear hopefully in 2009. After that I'm unsure, but would like headers and cats, then later x-pipe and mufflers. Oh joy.

[quickfast]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You're an idiot if you think I'm a 335 fanboy, I'm selling the car and think its a piece of shit compared to the M coupe. But it's a fact that its "quicker" than the M coupe.


That would make you the fanboy for ignoring reasoning and data.

You said...

Originally Posted by O-cha

Just so you know, you're an idiot. I own a bone stock M coupe and a 335 that I have done everything available to power wise and the M coupe is faster, period.

Make up your mind.

[jamboMR]

The title of this thread is a bit misleading... when you say "feeling" I assumed you were talking about the sensation of driving the thing day to day? If so everybody knows which one will give you a lot more tingles in the spine - a LOT. But you may have confused the matter by quoting straight line figures in there too, which are so close anyway. Which point is actually more important to you?

[Mikewarlover]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

Glad to help. It still kills me how much emphasis is placed on peak numbers and dyno graphs. If it's a smiliar curve, just higher, that's great. I've seen many dynos of "chipped" and modded N54s where the curve was anything but smooth, peaked even earlier, and dropped like a brick in the last 2500 rpms. But the end result is a car that will more easily bark the rear wheels and I think that's enough to entertain most.

Ultimately you start with a goal, such as shaving a half-second off 0-60 times. There are multiple paths to meet this goal...not all of which require motor mods. A shorter final gear alone will almost meet it. The 3.91 for example delivers 8% more torque to the road no matter the rpm or gear. The 4.10 delivers a whopping 13% across the rev range and should come close to meeting that goal, or exceeding it! Extremely lightweight wheels and gripper tires will improve acceleration, and aid braking and cornering too. On the motor side, software, headers/cats, lightweight flywheels, intakes mods like the RPI create a measureable boost in torque/hp. All but the flywheel have a variable power increase effect across the rpm range. The flywheel doesn't add power, but does allow the engine to rev quicker, which translates to quicker acceleration.

My goals for my car don't involve all these things, at least not all now. I've got the RPI ram air kit. Next I'll get ESS software this winter to smooth out the power, bump it up a bit, and eliminate the top speed limiter. Then the 3.91 final gear hopefully in 2009. After that I'm unsure, but would like headers and cats, then later x-pipe and mufflers. Oh joy.

totally agree there are other ways to approach better zero to 60 time.