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      04-13-2013, 03:03 PM   #1
ajw45
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Headers + Evolve-R Header Tune Dyno = Power Loss :(

Red = Evolve Stage 2 Header Tune + SGT Headers + KKS Exhaust
Blue = Evolve Stage 1 Tune + RPI Exhaust
Green = RPI Exhaust

All runs were done on the same dyno, the tunes had 500-1000 miles to set. I felt the power loss with the Stage 2 tune immediately but thought it was the new quieter exhaust messing with me. I'm assuming it's a tune issue but any thoughts or ideas if it could be something else? There's an auto-x tomorrow and I'm not sure if I should revert to the Stage 1 Evolve tune or OEM tune, mostly just because I'm worried about running the car all day when it is tuned so lean.
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      04-13-2013, 03:15 PM   #2
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looks like you are definitely running too lean.... where the afr drops at 7.5k the power immediately shoots back up....you should definitely sal, and show whats going on
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      04-13-2013, 03:44 PM   #3
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AFAIK 12.3 is roughly the ideal AFR for maximum power, so you usually want it between 12.5 and 13.

You were running a bit rich before, and now a bit lean.

Have you tried resetting adaptations?
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      04-13-2013, 06:37 PM   #4
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Any idea if it's safe to run this lean at the auto-x or would it be safer to flash back to an older tune?
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      04-13-2013, 07:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
AFAIK 12.3 is roughly the ideal AFR for maximum power, so you usually want it between 12.5 and 13.

You were running a bit rich before, and now a bit lean.

Have you tried resetting adaptations?
WHS. I would not run at high rpm's with it that lean.
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      04-13-2013, 07:25 PM   #6
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Hmm, the shop did clear the CEL light from the headers right before I loaded the header tune. Would that have cleared all adaptations?
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      04-13-2013, 09:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
Hmm, the shop did clear the CEL light from the headers right before I loaded the header tune. Would that have cleared all adaptations?
That just clears the codes. Normally driving it long enough will move the adaptations to where they need to be, but sometimes it's a good idea to reset them and have it start learning all over again, especially if there were codes that may have moved the adaptations in a bad direction.

As for if it's too lean I don't know enough to say for certain. Maybe someone that knows for certain can chime in.

The thing with flashing back to the previous tune, is that since you also changed the hardware you won't know if it also will run lean or not. You do have more air coming in with the less restrictive headers.

If anything maybe I'd flash back to stock as that might be a more conservative tune. In the long term you should work with evolve, I'm currently doing that process (adjusting my tune) with Sal.
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      04-13-2013, 09:34 PM   #8
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Thanks for the feedback. I felt the top end power loss the first drive after applying the Stage 2 tune and this was after I already had a few hundred miles on the Stage 1 tune with headers so I'm thinking its the tune. Therefore, I reverted back to the Stage 1 tune since it was richer than stock and we'll see what the butt dyno reads. In the interim, I guess I'll skip the auto-x tomorrow until I can get a known good set-up on the car...

I emailed Sal as well. Are you having any issues with your tune?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
That just clears the codes. Normally driving it long enough will move the adaptations to where they need to be, but sometimes it's a good idea to reset them and have it start learning all over again, especially if there were codes that may have moved the adaptations in a bad direction.

As for if it's too lean I don't know enough to say for certain. Maybe someone that knows for certain can chime in.

The thing with flashing back to the previous tune, is that since you also changed the hardware you won't know if it also will run lean or not. You do have more air coming in with the less restrictive headers.

If anything maybe I'd flash back to stock as that might be a more conservative tune. In the long term you should work with evolve, I'm currently doing that process (adjusting my tune) with Sal.
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      04-14-2013, 04:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
Thanks for the feedback. I felt the top end power loss the first drive after applying the Stage 2 tune and this was after I already had a few hundred miles on the Stage 1 tune with headers so I'm thinking its the tune. Therefore, I reverted back to the Stage 1 tune since it was richer than stock and we'll see what the butt dyno reads. In the interim, I guess I'll skip the auto-x tomorrow until I can get a known good set-up on the car...

I emailed Sal as well. Are you having any issues with your tune?
Wow I just realized we were reading your chart completely wrong. Sorry about not noticing earlier.

You were running lean before, lean tends to produce a little more power. Now you are running rich.

Higher AFR means more air, aka lean. Lower AFR means less air meaning a richer mixture. So if anything your AFRs before were unsafe, and now they are fine (you're just leaving power on the table by using extra fuel).

I'm having the same issue, my tune is running rich.

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      04-14-2013, 07:07 AM   #10
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Here's a couple of graphs of AFRs which I have datalogged from my Z4MC's ECU with the OEM maps.





This one is a closer examination of the graph above showing acceleration in 3rd gear to the redline.


In 1st gear acceleration at WOT the AFRs remains at around Stoichiometric levels, but in all higher gears the AFRs drop to around 13:1 and occasionally dip to 12.7:1. My car was running a modified air-intake and gutted silencers in this recording, but datalogging shows that the fuelling is exactly the same when the car is OEM, so clearly, the ECU is capable of adapting without a reset.

Looking at the dyno plots from ajw45 and beta, they show a slight dip in torque at around 7,300rpm followed by a slight recovery. I also find the same with my dyno plots from datalogging. I'm puzzled to know why this occurs???? The plots of acceleration and AFRs don't demonstrate this dip, but the dyno plots do. I'm thinking that this might be something to do with Vanos mapping. Anyone got any ideas?
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      04-14-2013, 11:22 AM   #11
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Sorry, that might have been confusing, you got it right the first time! My first tune (blue) was way rich and the new header tune (red) is way lean. Something in between would be ideal

FWIW, I went back to the rich (blue) tune last night and the car is definitely feeling more responsive though I haven't had a chance to really test the top end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beta View Post
Wow I just realized we were reading your chart completely wrong. Sorry about not noticing earlier.

You were running lean before, lean tends to produce a little more power. Now you are running rich.

Higher AFR means more air, aka lean. Lower AFR means less air meaning a richer mixture. So if anything your AFRs before were unsafe, and now they are fine (you're just leaving power on the table by using extra fuel).

I'm having the same issue, my tune is running rich.
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      04-14-2013, 02:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
Sorry, that might have been confusing, you got it right the first time! My first tune (blue) was way rich and the new header tune (red) is way lean. Something in between would be ideal
So what would be wrong with the OEM maps: the AFRs are just right?
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      04-14-2013, 07:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
Sorry, that might have been confusing, you got it right the first time! My first tune (blue) was way rich and the new header tune (red) is way lean. Something in between would be ideal

FWIW, I went back to the rich (blue) tune last night and the car is definitely feeling more responsive though I haven't had a chance to really test the top end.
Ah sorry, my confusion was red/blue d'oh. I should not post after having a few drinks

Definitely better to be a little on the rich side for safety. Hopefully Sal comes through for us and we can get our tune tweaked.
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      04-17-2013, 05:29 AM   #14
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Hi Guys

Sal is back in the office on Monday so I am sure he will be able to sort this out.

OP - have you checked for any diagnostic codes using the Evolve-R?

Also was the header upgrade and tune done at the same time. If so I would check the lambda sensors are plugged in correctly and not damaged as we have seen this with header installs.
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      04-17-2013, 03:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imran@Evolve View Post
Hi Guys

Sal is back in the office on Monday so I am sure he will be able to sort this out.

OP - have you checked for any diagnostic codes using the Evolve-R?

Also was the header upgrade and tune done at the same time. If so I would check the lambda sensors are plugged in correctly and not damaged as we have seen this with header installs.
As a potential customer, should I be concerned that multiple people on this forum are reporting power loss with the Evolve-R tune without any report (that I've seen) of a fix? Seems odd in light of how highly regarded your product is for the E46 M3. Also, left a voicemail almost two weeks ago because I had some other questions about how this tune would work for my setup and heard nothing back...
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      04-18-2013, 12:18 AM   #16
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Excellent! I did check after the last dyno session and there were no codes thrown according to the Evolve-R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imran@Evolve View Post
Hi Guys

Sal is back in the office on Monday so I am sure he will be able to sort this out.

OP - have you checked for any diagnostic codes using the Evolve-R?

Also was the header upgrade and tune done at the same time. If so I would check the lambda sensors are plugged in correctly and not damaged as we have seen this with header installs.
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      04-18-2013, 12:22 AM   #17
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I dunno. My first tune showed a nice consistent power gains across the curve and I was happy with it. The second one that has been a little rough and maybe it is because my first tune was on the rich side the second tune came out a little lean if Sal was trying to compensate. From what I've seen, it's still a good purchase with good gains to be realized but you need to dyno and verify, it isn't just a drop in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philjw View Post
As a potential customer, should I be concerned that multiple people on this forum are reporting power loss with the Evolve-R tune without any report (that I've seen) of a fix? Seems odd in light of how highly regarded your product is for the E46 M3. Also, left a voicemail almost two weeks ago because I had some other questions about how this tune would work for my setup and heard nothing back...
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      04-18-2013, 12:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45
I dunno. My first tune showed a nice consistent power gains across the curve and I was happy with it. The second one that has been a little rough and maybe it is because my first tune was on the rich side the second tune came out a little lean if Sal was trying to compensate. From what I've seen, it's still a good purchase with good gains to be realized but you need to dyno and verify, it isn't just a drop in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philjw View Post
As a potential customer, should I be concerned that multiple people on this forum are reporting power loss with the Evolve-R tune without any report (that I've seen) of a fix? Seems odd in light of how highly regarded your product is for the E46 M3. Also, left a voicemail almost two weeks ago because I had some other questions about how this tune would work for my setup and heard nothing back...
Don't u think the tuning company should 'dyno and verify' before sending out a ultra-lean tune that could potentially do a lot of damage?
Or should it be up to the customer to confirm the 'experts' have done their job?

FWIW, I've had no such issues with ESS. They've tuned things properly in house, have flawless AFR readings, and obviously mastered our DME (which is entirely different to the E46 M3).
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      04-18-2013, 10:52 AM   #19
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I have had no drivability issues with my tune but I have not had it on a dyno....maybe I should. If there are any updates to this header tune I would like to be made aware of them also.
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      04-18-2013, 06:23 PM   #20
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I also believe my car is running rich with the evolve tune I just got. Under WOT in low rpm the car stutters for a bit and then pulls, however didnt really feel a difference in power.
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      04-18-2013, 06:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
I dunno. My first tune showed a nice consistent power gains across the curve and I was happy with it. The second one that has been a little rough and maybe it is because my first tune was on the rich side the second tune came out a little lean if Sal was trying to compensate. From what I've seen, it's still a good purchase with good gains to be realized but you need to dyno and verify, it isn't just a drop in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
Don't u think the tuning company should 'dyno and verify' before sending out a ultra-lean tune that could potentially do a lot of damage?
Or should it be up to the customer to confirm the 'experts' have done their job?

FWIW, I've had no such issues with ESS. They've tuned things properly in house, have flawless AFR readings, and obviously mastered our DME (which is entirely different to the E46 M3).
Agreed regarding the need for vendor testing. Haven't seen people with the other tunes reporting nearly as many issues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum Child View Post
I also believe my car is running rich with the evolve tune I just got. Under WOT in low rpm the car stutters for a bit and then pulls, however didnt really feel a difference in power.
Just one more reason I'm leaning toward ESS. Still haven't received a call from Evolve, by the way... The lack of customer service is actually more frustrating.
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      04-30-2013, 12:24 AM   #22
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Update:
After reflashing back to the original Evolve tune and giving it a few hundred miles, we hit the dyno again and found the lean condition is gone (running rich again) but the power loss remains!!! The dyno is showing that the headers are making solid power below 5k rpm but above 5k rpm the engine falls flat on it's face with both Stage 1 and Stage 2 tunes, rich and lean. Given the Stage 1 made solid numbers before the headers, I imagine it's a mechanical rather than a tune issue. Any ideas what could cause this power loss?
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