G-Power SK I versus ESS VT2-500

[Beedub]

same mine tucked away now too..... took this before it went into storage.

[DRedman45]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

Better hurry! The G-Power car is stored for the winter, and the ESS car will follow in a couple of weeks.

I'm in no hurry...I've been super busy, I just bought a house and I've spent all my free time working on it, my poor coupe has been neglected for a month haha

[pokeybritches]

Same dyno, same day. Red is G-Power, blue is ESS. The guys at the shop were impressed the ESS car made as much power as it did, having all four stock cats in place. I got the files, so I can manipulate them as desired.

At just over 6k rpm, the G-Power car is making ~40 whp more. That's where I saw the biggest difference when pulling the cars side by side. Once I swap out the OEM headers, I should see some huge gains on the ESS car.

[Beedub]

so ESS car has all 4 cats in place is making 1hp less in total.... Very impressive.
lose those cats and watch that sky rocket, i suspect it will really show in a race too,

that vortech just keeps climbing where the asa just tails off, quite some way back too, the mid range difference is definitely noticeable, but again, i expected more with such a free flow setup compared to the red cars restrictive 4 cat setup and the fact the VT isn't a Tq monster, the vortech is performing better than expected for such a large unit, i expect it to exceed the Hp by a large margin and close the gap on the Tq too with a much nicer looking curve to

pokey respect for bring the info to the table...

[pokeybritches]

G-Power dyno:

[pokeybritches]

ESS dyno:

[Beedub]

Both sound great but the g-power sounds much better, the vortech sounds like a muffled turbo setup which isn't very exciting tbh.....

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by Beedub

Both sound great but the g-power sounds much better, the vortech sounds like a muffled turbo setup which isn't very exciting tbh.....

Agreed on the sound. The ESS kit will sound much better once I get an external BOV installed.

I wouldn't necessarily say the ESS car makes 1 less hp in total. Peak, yes, but that's what the Vortech does well. From 6-7k the, G-Power car has 30-40 more whp. The lines don't cross until over 7500... however, I'm going to see if there's anything I can do about the top end, whether hardware or software. TBH, I was a little disappointed the G-Power car didn't break 400 whp. I'm going to clean the filter, check fluid levels, and be up for a valve adjustment soon.

The ESS car sees upwards of 11 psi on the P3Cars analog boost gauge, which tells you how much restriction there is in the stock headers. It's fighting with one arm tied behind its back. There's no reason to not see 420-430 whp once that bottleneck is cleared.

I have some more data to present, though it's not conclusive in any way. The G-Power dynoed first. Its first two runs were a consistent 394 whp. In the interest of trying to break 400 whp, we gave it a 2-3 min break. It then dynoed at 392 whp. All three runs looked almost identical. (Going off memory here because I don't have the printout yet) the ESS car started at 385 whp, then hit 393 whp, and finally dropped back down a few horsepower to 389 whp after maybe a 30 sec break.

[GuidoK]

The ess torque curve is very flat between 6k-8k (just after the drop at 6k).
Is that a sign of very good tuning or bad tuning?

Obviously the g-power makes more torque at that point just after the drop (about 40ft-lbs more to the wheels if I see correctly)

But very good conditions to dyno; cold&dry.

[Beedub]

can't wait to see the result after you go catless, pick up a cheap DkF section 1 from the many people that want out due to CEL and get headers and as you car has meth, i don't see why 435-440rwhp isn't achievable.

i need to get my car back to the dyno now i have the large bore 100 cell section 1, I'm hoping for good numbers as the car feels very strong.... lets not forget the 525 kit which is only 1lb more boost makes the same Tq or closes the gap significantly and higher hp figure for the same money as the g-power setup, the VT v3si not a one trick pony that everyone thinks, it just needs boost due to its size.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Beedub

can't wait to see the result after you go catless, pick up a cheap DkF section 1 from the many people that want out due to CEL and get headers and as you car has meth, i don't see why 435-440rwhp isn't achievable.

i need to get my car back to the dyno now i have the large bore 100 cell section 1, I'm hoping for good numbers as the car feels very strong.... lets not forget the 525 kit which is only 1lb more boost makes the same Tq or closes the gap significantly and higher hp figure for the same money as the g-power setup, the VT v3si not a one trick pony that everyone thinks, it just needs boost due to its size.

Yep , I made 430whp on a modest dynojet running catless on a 90 degree day , and that's only hitting 7.5 psi bc of slip/ leak . It will be interesting to see what I make after the head work .

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Yep , I made 430whp on a modest dynojet running catless on a 90 degree day , and that's only hitting 7.5 psi bc of slip/ leak . It will be interesting to see what I make after the head work .

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

Same dyno, same day. Red is G-Power, blue is ESS. The guys at the shop were impressed the ESS car made as much power as it did, having all four stock cats in place. I got the files, so I can manipulate them as desired.

At just over 6k rpm, the G-Power car is making ~40 whp more. That's where I saw the biggest difference when pulling the cars side by side. Once I swap out the OEM headers, I should see some huge gains on the ESS car.

The ESS curve doesn't look very normal.
at 5.5k all S54 will have a torque bump but then at 6.5k will get back as if the bump was not there.

In your graph it seems that after 5,5k the whole linearity is broken.

This is the EAS stock everything ESS car:


This is my car from the earliest runs without adaptations and with some minor boost leaks:


You notice how the torque hits a max at 5.5 almost and a small bump at 6 and then picks up at 6.5 ? Same as HP

[tikamak]

I would also like to add that I have driven my VT2-500 car after fixing some boost leaks and having the engine well broken in

It doesn't feel satanic on midrange like i stated earlier but this doesn't mean that it's dead, it's pretty scary in the midrange and then comes >6K RPM and the car feels like it just wants to rip the pavement apart. I would like to insist on ripping the pavement apart so that potential ESS buyers would not turn away from this purchase due to a misunderstanding or a wording choice in an online review of the kits.

I would like to add that i have EURO headers + S pipe decatted with the pseudo resonator chambers left intact to keep the exhaust pulse the same, stock Xpipe and diablo mufflers, i wouldn't imagine how the car would feel like with 525 pulleys.

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

The ess torque curve is very flat between 6k-8k (just after the drop at 6k).
Is that a sign of very good tuning or bad tuning?

Obviously the g-power makes more torque at that point just after the drop (about 40ft-lbs more to the wheels if I see correctly)

But very good conditions to dyno; cold&dry.

Yes, dyno conditions were ideal. I was fortunate to be able to dyno in conditions that take weather variables out of the equation.

I'm not a tuner, but the ESS car seems to be tuned pretty well. A consistent curve is one of the many signs of a good tune, as long as the curve isn't consistently bad . A lot of dips and bumps can mean the car is bouncing between maps. As far as being flat, I think it really depends on the application. The centrifugal supercharger is increasing torque while the torque would naturally be falling off in high rpm, so if the rate of increase = rate of decrease, then you would get a flat torque curve. With a smaller pulley, the torque might increase to redline. And with a larger pulley, it might decrease approaching redline. I'll say you can really feel the flatness, because power is proportional to rpm. It makes the car very easy to drive.

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by Beedub

can't wait to see the result after you go catless, pick up a cheap DkF section 1 from the many people that want out due to CEL and get headers and as you car has meth, i don't see why 435-440rwhp isn't achievable.

i need to get my car back to the dyno now i have the large bore 100 cell section 1, I'm hoping for good numbers as the car feels very strong.... lets not forget the 525 kit which is only 1lb more boost makes the same Tq or closes the gap significantly and higher hp figure for the same money as the g-power setup, the VT v3si not a one trick pony that everyone thinks, it just needs boost due to its size.

I'm considering a DKF, especially now that they have the cat issue sorted. I don't think I can afford to go with HJS cats on this car too. I didn't run meth on the dyno. When we were troubleshooting the no start condition I disconnected it and haven't hooked it back up.

I thought the 525 was only 0.5 psi higher?

I don't think I've seen your dyno. Do you mind posting?

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Yep , I made 430whp on a modest dynojet running catless on a 90 degree day , and that's only hitting 7.5 psi bc of slip/ leak . It will be interesting to see what I make after the head work .

I'm expecting 430 whp with headers alone, but I don't want to set expectations too high so I've dialed it back to 420-430 whp. I don't know what my boost gauge will read with a free-flowing exhaust. Right now it's reading over 11 psi at redline (not good).

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by tikamak

The ESS curve doesn't look very normal.
at 5.5k all S54 will have a torque bump but then at 6.5k will get back as if the bump was not there.

In your graph it seems that after 5,5k the whole linearity is broken.

This is the EAS stock everything ESS car:


This is my car from the earliest runs without adaptations and with some minor boost leaks:


You notice how the torque hits a max at 5.5 almost and a small bump at 6 and then picks up at 6.5 ? Same as HP

The ESS curve is normal. The small bumps are where the car is changing tuning maps. A dyno tune can take those bumps out. I'm getting a TTFS tune when I put the headers and section 1 in, simply because the car is on alpha n and any hardware changes require a retune. It has nothing to do with disappointment in ESS's tune

Thanks for the graphs. Your AFR starts to get pretty rich, which is consistent with a boost leak. You've probably seen a decent bump in power now that those are sorted. I think you'll see more gains if you swap out the cat bodies to resonators or straight pipes.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

I'm considering a DKF, especially now that they have the cat issue sorted. I don't think I can afford to go with HJS cats on this car too. I didn't run meth on the dyno. When we were troubleshooting the no start condition I disconnected it and haven't hooked it back up.

I thought the 525 was only 0.5 psi higher?

I don't think I've seen your dyno. Do you mind posting?

the dkf is good for its large bore pipe work, the Cats are metallic race units ( the 100 Cell unit appear to be so free flowing the car sounds cat-less) but i can't attest to their quality until i get to my yearly emissions test, I'm hoping to get to the dyno as soon as spring hits so ill be sure to get a thread up with a video and numbers, id like a retune but ESS say this is not needed for exhaust changes as the tune will adapt, i unfortunately don't have the ease to get a quality proven tuner like you do, i would have liked evolve to tune it but due to their issues with the Z4m tunes/carbon airbox tune issues in general i decided against it.

the 525 runs an extra lb of boost, you definitely need to sort the cats out asap, thats serious restriction for the car to be registering 11psi on a 7lb pulley...

you r information is absolutely gold btw, well done! i promise to pull my finger out and get some figures for you and myself early spring. id REALLY like to see 430rwhp +



BTW Ess tunes the cars quit rich tbh, mine gets the tips black pretty quick.

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

The ESS curve is normal. The small bumps are where the car is changing tuning maps. A dyno tune can take those bumps out. I'm getting a TTFS tune when I put the headers and section 1 in, simply because the car is on alpha n and any hardware changes require a retune. It has nothing to do with disappointment in ESS's tune

Thanks for the graphs. Your AFR starts to get pretty rich, which is consistent with a boost leak. You've probably seen a decent bump in power now that those are sorted. I think you'll see more gains if you swap out the cat bodies to resonators or straight pipes.

No i'm not saying the ESS curve is flawed, i'm saying that the curve that you are having is different than the rest of the ESS cars, could it be due to headers?

PS: that 10.6 AFR is actually an 11.6, it was a faulty AFR sensor, the AFR sensor in the car was reading 11.6. However the boost leak was there even with perfect AFR (dynamic AFR target tune ) because i was reading 5.5-6 PSI

Surprisingly after removing the cats and keeping the pseudo resonating chambers, the car is acting very torquey

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by Beedub

the dkf is good for its large bore pipe work, the Cats are metallic race units ( the 100 Cell unit appear to be so free flowing the car sounds cat-less) but i can't attest to their quality until i get to my yearly emissions test, I'm hoping to get to the dyno as soon as spring hits so ill be sure to get a thread up with a video and numbers, id like a retune but ESS say this is not needed for exhaust changes as the tune will adapt, i unfortunately don't have the ease to get a quality proven tuner like you do, i would have liked evolve to tune it but due to their issues with the Z4m tunes/carbon airbox tune issues in general i decided against it.

the 525 runs an extra lb of boost, you definitely need to sort the cats out asap, thats serious restriction for the car to be registering 11psi on a 7lb pulley...

you r information is absolutely gold btw, well done! i promise to pull my finger out and get some figures for you and myself early spring. id REALLY like to see 430rwhp +



BTW Ess tunes the cars quit rich tbh, mine gets the tips black pretty quick.

You're right about the 500 kits running 7 psi... I just looked it up.

You wouldn't happen to know the piping diameter measurements would you? I'm interested to know the difference in stock versus DKF. I think stock is 2.36. DKF had talked about a stepped design, but I hadn't heard definitively if it made it into the production piece.

For tuners, TTFS does remote tuning. That's what mfanatic325 (Lon) did for his VF570 car.

One thing I didn't mention is the mileage difference between the two cars. The G-Power car now has 117k miles, while the ESS car has about 42k miles. Both cars are 2006's, but only the ESS car has had the VANOS bolts replaced. The G-Power was a late production 2006 car, so it may already have the improved cam bolts. Once I pull both cars back out of storage this summer, I'm going to be doing some major maintenance on the G-Power car - VANOS bolts, rod bearings and ARP bolts, general supercharger maintenance, and cosmetic cleanup (dent removal, weather stripping. front bumper respray, detail). Until then, it's pretty much parked.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

You're right about the 500 kits running 7 psi... I just looked it up.

You wouldn't happen to know the piping diameter measurements would you? I'm interested to know the difference in stock versus DKF. I think stock is 2.36. DKF had talked about a stepped design, but I hadn't heard definitively if it made it into the production piece.

For tuners, TTFS does remote tuning. That's what mfanatic325 (Lon) did for his VF570 car.

One thing I didn't mention is the mileage difference between the two cars. The G-Power car now has 117k miles, while the ESS car has about 42k miles. Both cars are 2006's, but only the ESS car has had the VANOS bolts replaced. The G-Power was a late production 2006 car, so it may already have the improved cam bolts. Once I pull both cars back out of storage this summer, I'm going to be doing some major maintenance on the G-Power car - VANOS bolts, rod bearings and ARP bolts, general supercharger maintenance, and cosmetic cleanup (dent removal, weather stripping. front bumper respray, detail). Until then, it's pretty much parked.

the stepped design did make production , as did the harmonic tabs, i believe it 2.5" for each bank.

i will see what the car dyno's and really study the curve, once this is done ill decide whether i want to retune, the canned ESS tune seems very good and very safe :-)

lastly, strangely my 500kit has never ran 7lbs, at 7900 i see 8.25psi always have done, infact at oe point i was concerned enough to actually contact ESS and ask if this was ok, he said some setups make alittle more and the tune had enough scope to deal with extra boost.