Handling like Boxster S?

[swedish_z4]

I had to chance couple days ago to test drive a Porsche Boxter S. What a car and amazing handling it had. It blew my away. It felt like a go-cart and my z4 like a comfort car

Now, my wondering is if a want to improve the handling on my Z4, is it enough to just change the springs like H&R or do I have make major changes to the suspension?

[AWM3]

KW V3 coilover suspension
Part No: 35220004
Should be readily available in your location.

[Dammmittt]

The Z4 will never handle like the boxster S. The mid engine design is what makes it handle so well.

[Andrewinla]

I agree. I did back and forth test drives between Cayman S and Z4M Coupe.
The Cayman was much easier to drive fast in the corners.
I just couldnt rationalize the price bump to get the Cayman.

Maybe a real good driver can squeeze the same numbers out of both cars, but to a amateur like me, the Cayman made me feel like a great driver.
I too think the weight and engine placement of the car make a big impact on the way it drives.
So it would be hard to make a front engine Z4 drive like a mid engine car.

[AWM3]

Originally Posted by Andrewinla

I agree. I did back and forth test drives between Cayman S and Z4M Coupe.
The Cayman was much easier to drive fast in the corners.
I just couldnt rationalize the price bump to get the Cayman.

Maybe a real good driver can squeeze the same numbers out of both cars, but to a amateur like me, the Cayman made me feel like a great driver.
I too think the weight and engine placement of the car make a big impact on the way it drives.
So it would be hard to make a front engine Z4 drive like a mid engine car.

The Z4 is a mid engine car. It is a front mid engine car. Open the hood and look at where the engine is - it's behind the front axle.

Porsche did a better job of suspension tuning on the Boxster/Cayman than BMW did on the Z4, and Porsche put better tires on the Cayman S, way better than the Continentals on the Z4M. It is possible to get the Z4 to handle as well as a Boxster or Cayman, but you have to spend some money and change some parts, particularly the springs, shocks, and tires.

[angrodri]

My car previous to the Z4M Coupe was a Boxster S, which I tracked extensively - it was not modified. Although I have yet to track my Z4MC, I feel it will be quite a bit faster - especially on higher speed/longer tracks. The main differences are in the factory setup, namely:

- The Conti Sport Contacts and/or RFT on non-M's are inferior to anything on a Boxster or Cayman, this makes a huge difference

- The Z4MC is set to understeer, whereas the Box and Cayman are pretty neutral from factory

- (related to braking) the Z4MC brakes are great, but the pads are spec'd for comfort/cold stops, whereas Porsche OE pads/fluid can take more heat

On my car, I swapped the Conti's for Toyo T1R's and 19" CSL wheels; added a strut brace and more negative camber in the front (-1.3 degrees); replaced the OE pads with Axxis Ultimates and ATE Super Blue.

The car was very good originally, but now it feels transformed with just these small changes. I was expecting the tires to make a big difference, but was the most surprised by the strut brace -- the Coupe is very rigid but for some reason the brace immediately improved turn-in and dialed out understeer.

As far as weight distribution, the cars are actually very similar - although the Z4 is ~200 lbs. heavier. Porsche puts the driver in front and engine behind, BMW the opposite with almost the same effect. The Box/Cayman have a slight rear bias which does help with braking stability and corner exit/traction.

I"ll report back on June 29th after a day at Sebring, but I expect the Z4MC to be quite a bit faster than my Box S.


Cheers

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by car62

The Z4 is a mid engine car. It is a front mid engine car. Open the hood and look at where the engine is - it's behind the front axle.

[swedish_z4]

thanks angrodri for the very intresting reading!

though i think i will begin to change to springs first. About the springs most people recommend me to buy the Eibach Pro kit wich will lower 15mm on the m-chassi. and then there is the H&R springs wich lowers more but som people tells me to avoid it. First of all that it gets to low and handling can become worse. True?

All though my Z4 has 19inch wheels and it feels like to high, i could really need a bigger drop.

[pbdm4k]

Originally Posted by swedish_z4

thanks angrodri for the very intresting reading!

though i think i will begin to change to springs first. About the springs most people recommend me to buy the Eibach Pro kit wich will lower 15mm on the m-chassi. and then there is the H&R springs wich lowers more but som people tells me to avoid it. First of all that it gets to low and handling can become worse. True?

All though my Z4 has 19inch wheels and it feels like to high, i could really need a bigger drop.

I think the way to go would be to get a strut tower brace first. After installing mine I noticed an immediate difference in steering feel and turn in.

If you are going to do suspension, I suggest getting shocks with the new springs you're planning on getting. Factory shocks are valved to the springs they come with and just changing springs may cause premature wear of the shocks and make them more prone to blowing out.

You may also want to look into beefier sway bars like those from Hotchkis or H&R.

[rc'Z]

Originally Posted by swedish_z4

thanks angrodri for the very intresting reading!

though i think i will begin to change to springs first. About the springs most people recommend me to buy the Eibach Pro kit wich will lower 15mm on the m-chassi. and then there is the H&R springs wich lowers more but som people tells me to avoid it. First of all that it gets to low and handling can become worse. True?

All though my Z4 has 19inch wheels and it feels like to high, i could really need a bigger drop.

The 19" wheels won't necessarly make your car 1 inch higher than 18" wheels. A good wheel/tire dealer will change the aspect ratio of the tire and keep the over all diameter of the 19" wheel/tire the same as the 18". For instance if the tires were 35 front and 30 rear, they could be changed to 30 front and 25 rear.

[angrodri]

The Eibach springs should help. As an option you can consider the Bilstein PSS9 or K&W coil-over kit for the Z4 Another option might be the Z4M struts/springs/sway bars from factory -- could be cheaper?

I agree on the strut bar, it is a good first step.

Cheers

Originally Posted by swedish_z4

thanks angrodri for the very intresting reading!

though i think i will begin to change to springs first. About the springs most people recommend me to buy the Eibach Pro kit wich will lower 15mm on the m-chassi. and then there is the H&R springs wich lowers more but som people tells me to avoid it. First of all that it gets to low and handling can become worse. True?

All though my Z4 has 19inch wheels and it feels like to high, i could really need a bigger drop.

[karlamparo]

this might help.

[Graham M]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

no kidding. WTF?

Originally Posted by car62

The Z4 is a mid engine car. It is a front mid engine car. Open the hood and look at where the engine is - it's behind the front axle.

Porsche did a better job of suspension tuning on the Boxster/Cayman than BMW did on the Z4, and Porsche put better tires on the Cayman S, way better than the Continentals on the Z4M. It is possible to get the Z4 to handle as well as a Boxster or Cayman, but you have to spend some money and change some parts, particularly the springs, shocks, and tires.

yes, the Z4 is a mid-engined car alright.

I think "Car62" will be making his way to my ignore list.

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by Graham M

yes, the Z4 is a mid-engined car alright.

I think "Car62" will be making his way to my ignore list.

I want him to show me a car with the engine in front of the front axle.

[wrh3]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

I want him to show me a car with the engine in front of the front axle.

Actually, most of the Audis made have the majority of the engine mass in front of the front axle

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by wrh3

Actually, most of the Audis made have the majority of the engine mass in front of the front axle

BOOOO!!!!

[NJ-Eric]

Originally Posted by wrh3

Actually, most of the Audis made have the majority of the engine mass in front of the front axle

...and Subarus and most all FWD cars, too.

-Eric

[Black///Mamba]

Originally Posted by angrodri

My car previous to the Z4M Coupe was a Boxster S, which I tracked extensively - it was not modified. Although I have yet to track my Z4MC, I feel it will be quite a bit faster - especially on higher speed/longer tracks. The main differences are in the factory setup, namely:

- The Conti Sport Contacts and/or RFT on non-M's are inferior to anything on a Boxster or Cayman, this makes a huge difference

- The Z4MC is set to understeer, whereas the Box and Cayman are pretty neutral from factory

- (related to braking) the Z4MC brakes are great, but the pads are spec'd for comfort/cold stops, whereas Porsche OE pads/fluid can take more heat

On my car, I swapped the Conti's for Toyo T1R's and 19" CSL wheels; added a strut brace and more negative camber in the front (-1.3 degrees); replaced the OE pads with Axxis Ultimates and ATE Super Blue.

The car was very good originally, but now it feels transformed with just these small changes. I was expecting the tires to make a big difference, but was the most surprised by the strut brace -- the Coupe is very rigid but for some reason the brace immediately improved turn-in and dialed out understeer.

As far as weight distribution, the cars are actually very similar - although the Z4 is ~200 lbs. heavier. Porsche puts the driver in front and engine behind, BMW the opposite with almost the same effect. The Box/Cayman have a slight rear bias which does help with braking stability and corner exit/traction.

I"ll report back on June 29th after a day at Sebring, but I expect the Z4MC to be quite a bit faster than my Box S.


Cheers

which strut bar did you get that improved handling so much? the oem one? the strong strut? dinan?

where'd you order it. thanks!

[Black///Mamba]

Originally Posted by wrh3

Actually, most of the Audis made have the majority of the engine mass in front of the front axle

Bill, you are my favorite member on this site. You rarely post, but when you do it is either very informative or very funny. I also view your website about once a week, more updates please! Keep up the good work!

[blue-coupe]

Originally Posted by karlamparo

this might help.

DAMNIT!! I've got a busy day today! I can not be watching this video all morning!

[RichardTS]

Originally Posted by Graham M

no kidding. WTF?




yes, the Z4 is a mid-engined car alright.

I think "Car62" will be making his way to my ignore list.

Take the time to research before you laugh. Although the Z4 is not what anyone generally means when they refer to a mid engine car (and I do not call it mid engine) it IS a mid engine car by the strict definition of a mid engine car - the engine is located BETWEEN (mid) the front and rear axles.

Most on the board may not be aware of the fact that BMW generally designs their front engine cars with the center of gravity of the engine BEHIND the centerline of of the front axle. This has classically been a requirement of a proper sports car and is also what enables BMW to get the 50/50 weight distribution. The engine not being located in the fashion in most front wheel drive cars is what makes them pigs to drive - the engine placement is a major source of understeer.

[AWM3]

A lot of the posters on these boards know next to nothing. They just like to type in comments and statements based on their small bit of information. Mazda marketed the original RX-7 in 1979 as a "mid engine" car because the engine, although in front of the driver, was behind the centerline of the front axle. In 1979 most of the members of this forum either weren't born yet or were having their diapers changed.