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      10-25-2011, 06:41 AM   #1
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Getting started in amateur track days

After 3 years in the Coupe and getting very comfortable behind the wheel, I'm looking into prepping it a bit and do some amateur tracking.

I'm planning the following mods, for safety more than anything:
1) coilovers
2) big brake kit
3) 19" racing wheels -- I realize 19" may be frowned upon at the track but the Coupe is my daily driver as well and I want it to remain in hybrid track/road trim.

A couple questions about tires...
1) Can tires be unmounted and remounted or is that not recommended?
2) What do y'all think of Hankook Ventu V12 on the track?

Any additional advice is welcome. But yes, I know I need to attend a clinic first, in fact any club you join requires it. Currently I'm looking at Northern California Racing Club and Speed Ventures. Any others I should check out?

Thanks!
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      10-25-2011, 08:17 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
After 3 years in the Coupe and getting very comfortable behind the wheel, I'm looking into prepping it a bit and do some amateur tracking.

I'm planning the following mods, for safety more than anything:
1) coilovers
2) big brake kit
3) 19" racing wheels -- I realize 19" may be frowned upon at the track but the Coupe is my daily driver as well and I want it to remain in hybrid track/road trim.

A couple questions about tires...
1) Can tires be unmounted and remounted or is that not recommended?
2) What do y'all think of Hankook Ventu V12 on the track?

Any additional advice is welcome. But yes, I know I need to attend a clinic first, in fact any club you join requires it. Currently I'm looking at Northern California Racing Club and Speed Ventures. Any others I should check out?

Thanks!
Sorry but I don't think any of the mods you listed above will improve upon safety.

The stock suspension is more than enough for your first few track days if not your first season or two. And for a car that's going to be your daily, I see this as only a bigger issue in terms of bottoming out and what not.

The big brake kit's only advantage is unsprung weight (which is alot to pay up for), and fade resistance. But the latter can be addressed through better pads & fluid.

Unless you're going forged, 19's are heavy as heck and will only add more rotating mass.

I don't see what the issue of mounting/remounting but if you plan on doing multiple track days, you're probably better off a) getting a dedicated track wheel setup or b) just use tires that can be used for both street/track - which in that case the Hankook v12s would suffice for both.

End of day, the car in stock form is more than you can handle and there's no reason to upgrade any parts until you have exceeded the limits of the car (on the track, not street). Plus you'll free up a lot more money for future track days!
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      10-25-2011, 09:39 AM   #3
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+1
If you are doing 1 or 2 DE's BBK and Coilovers are overkill.

I'd say it's best to go stock set a baseline for feel, grip and comfort. Once you have done a few events and can normalize out the driver to agree, then you can focus on what if any problem areas come up.

I would stay away from dedicated race rubber. I hear it's like crack, once you try it you can't go back. But more importantly, the added grip mill mask bad driving techniques. If you have a decent street tire, I would use that, and just flush the brake fluid before the event. As your first time out you probably will not be going fast enough to need upgraded pads. After an event or two and the speed picks up, you will probably want pads also.

I would stay away from 19's for anything beyond normal street driving.

I've been very happy with my Hankook RS3s for autox and a DE at Barber.
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      10-25-2011, 10:13 AM   #4
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You don't need a BBK, Coilovers or Tires for your first few events. Swap to some good brake fluid like Castrol SRF, Motul RBF600 or the equivalent and get out there for a few events and get a feel for your car and your capabilities.

If you decide you like it and you find yourself doing 8-12 events a year, you'll likely want to invest in track rubber, but for the first few events these items may actually hinder your learning. Spend your money on more track time at first and then upgrade as required.
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      10-25-2011, 10:29 AM   #5
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+1 on everything above.

The car is great stock. I'd add stainless steel brake lines when you swap brake fluid since its low effort at that stage, but that's it.

Once you get hooked, 17" dedicated track wheels are popular (cheaper rubber, lighter, etc).

In regards to the V12's, I am not happy with them on the AutoX track. They take too long to warm up for my take. I have heard very good reviews of the RS3's though. I'm going to be swapping out to those for next season before jumping to slicks.
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      10-25-2011, 01:47 PM   #6
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Thanks for the advice y'all.

Looks like first things first are:

1) brake pads (I've heard people like swapping pads between track and road. Why? Is it just noise issues or something else?)

2) brake fluid

3) brake lines

Regarding the wheels, I live in an apartment so it's a big hassle to keep an extra set of wheels around, let alone swap them. I'm a fan of looks off-track, so I'm looking into forged 19" Advan brand wheels. (8.5 kg Front, 9.2 kg rear)

Regarding tires, I just want to unmount my current Hankook V12s from my current 19" wheels and remount them to the Advans. Then upgrade to something else as you mention later.

Can I get a blessing on this setup?
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      10-25-2011, 01:58 PM   #7
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I'll add my two cents. Brake pad thickness and fluid freshness is more important than the type of pad for your first few track days (and possibly well beyond). The pad itself acts as an insulator between the very hot rotor and the caliper (and brake fluid). Make sure you have 50% of the pad, fresh fluid, and you're good to go. As you probably know, fluid attracts moisture, and fluid that's 6+ months old isn't hard to boil on the track.

Brake lines aren't even necessary IMO the first few times out as long as their in good condition. Can't hurt, will help feel, but not a requirement.

Nothing wrong with the plan for tires/wheels as well per se. Folks are saying that rubber costs (and selection) for 19s is less than optimal (this becomes a cost issue if you end up hooked on DEs, which let me tell you is very likely to happen). The weight of the wheel is less than optimal as well with 19s, so the two together (new 19s, ongoing rubber expense) is the issue. Plus the track kind of beats up wheels (especially if you do go with more track oriented pads in the future), and you're not going to want nasty corrosive brake dust all over those nice (and expensive) wheels.
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      10-25-2011, 02:52 PM   #8
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I can give the V12's a thumbs up for a combined street and track tire. I have used them for several DE and they hold up really really well. They do have pretty soft sidewalls so they roll a little but some extra tire pressure helps that. All in all I can recommend them. I use them on the road also as my car still does about 15,000 miles a year on the road. They are also really great in the wet and even hold up to cold temps here in New England.
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      10-25-2011, 04:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
Thanks for the advice y'all.

Looks like first things first are:

1) brake pads (I've heard people like swapping pads between track and road. Why? Is it just noise issues or something else?)

2) brake fluid

3) brake lines

Regarding the wheels, I live in an apartment so it's a big hassle to keep an extra set of wheels around, let alone swap them. I'm a fan of looks off-track, so I'm looking into forged 19" Advan brand wheels. (8.5 kg Front, 9.2 kg rear)

Regarding tires, I just want to unmount my current Hankook V12s from my current 19" wheels and remount them to the Advans. Then upgrade to something else as you mention later.

Can I get a blessing on this setup?

Yes, keep the v12's especially if there's a lot meat left. Still think you can find better/lighter wheels than knockoffs, just have to be patient. Else, take a look at the Apex Arc wheels... even at new, they’re pretty affordable, lightweight, looks fantastic, functional and stronger than your average wheel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
Brake lines aren't even necessary IMO the first few times out as long as their in good condition. Can't hurt, will help feel, but not a requirement.
Agreed, not necessary but if you're going to go through effort of replacing pads and flush, might as well do new lines. Plus they're pretty cheap


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverlift328 View Post
I can give the V12's a thumbs up for a combined street and track tire. I have used them for several DE and they hold up really really well. They do have pretty soft sidewalls so they roll a little but some extra tire pressure helps that. All in all I can recommend them. I use them on the road also as my car still does about 15,000 miles a year on the road. They are also really great in the wet and even hold up to cold temps here in New England.
Agreed, V12’s served me well in my first season of auto-x, first 4 track days, and 15,000 road miles in between.
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      10-25-2011, 05:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubbedown View Post
Still think you can find better/lighter wheels than knockoffs, just have to be patient. Else, take a look at the Apex Arc wheels... even at new, they’re pretty affordable, lightweight, looks fantastic, functional and stronger than your average wheel.
Advan is a popular Japanese brand and some professional BMW racing teams use them. At $750/wheel, they're hardly "knockoffs". They're 5 lbs lighter per wheel than the OEM 18" which I see people track with often. I think they'll be satisfactory for now. I don't find Apex Arcs attractive.

Point taken about not even needing a pad upgrade but I know I need to do the fluid so I might as well just upgrade the pads and lines. Any recommendations for pads? I'd like to use them for street as well. Why do some folks swap?
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      10-25-2011, 05:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
Advan is a popular Japanese brand and some professional BMW racing teams use them. At $750/wheel, they're hardly "knockoffs". They're 5 lbs lighter per wheel than the OEM 18" which I see people track with often. I think they'll be satisfactory for now. I don't find Apex Arcs attractive.

Point taken about not even needing a pad upgrade but I know I need to do the fluid so I might as well just upgrade the pads and lines. Any recommendations for pads? I'd like to use them for street as well. Why do some folks swap?
Sorry - I'm familiar with Advans, I myself am a Volks guy. I didn't understand what you meant when you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
I'm a fan of looks off-track, so I'm looking into forged 19" Advan brand wheels. (8.5 kg Front, 9.2 kg rear)
... thought that was your way of saying "knock offs."


In regards to pads, most people will tell you just like all-season tires, there's no 1 pad that does both well, you'll end up getting a compromise of both. But for your first few events you may be able to get away with something like Hawk HP+. Here's a good link that compares the different Hawk pads, the pads to the right being more appropriate for race/track application:

http://andrew-racing.com/file/630-Ha...ison+chart.pdf

Another thing to consider is some pads can be corrosive so you should do your research on those (ie I've heard Cobalts fall under this category). I personally run PFC-06's and they have been great so far, and are pretty easy on your rotors relative to other track pads.

Why people switch? Few reasons I can think of:

1) Track pads are loud as heck, at every light you'll sound like a school bus
2) They need to warm up in order to perform and you may never reach those temps on normal street driving so street pads would actually perform better (especially in the colder temps)
3) You run the risk of warping your rotors (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but if the brakes don't warm up properly, you may leave uneven deposit on your rotors, especially if it's wet.
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      10-25-2011, 05:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
Point taken about not even needing a pad upgrade but I know I need to do the fluid so I might as well just upgrade the pads and lines. Any recommendations for pads? I'd like to use them for street as well. Why do some folks swap?
Stoptech pads and lines. Available here...

http://www.zeckhausen.com/BMW/Z4-M_Coupe_Roadster.htm

Fluid

http://store.zeckhausen.com/catalog/...facturers_id=8

Folks that swap are typically using aggressive pads that operate at high heat levels and don't lend themselves well to daily driving. In addition they can be noisy. I have the Stoptech's. I don't drive in cold weather; another consideration is the operating range of the friction material.
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      10-25-2011, 08:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
Any additional advice is welcome. But yes, I know I need to attend a clinic first, in fact any club you join requires it. Currently I'm looking at Northern California Racing Club and Speed Ventures. Any others I should check out?

Thanks!
Give them all a try! Hooked On Driving, Trackmasters, NASA, PCA, BMW CCA, etc. See which ones you prefer. Just another excuse to get your car on the track

As others have said, I would definitely not go out and get coilovers and a BBK right away. Learn to drive the car well on the track in it's stock form first and then move to SS lines and track pads as needed. Then if you do decide to mod more heavily later, the benefits will be much more appreciated

Just speaking from my first time out at the track, there is no way in hell that I could have needed anything more than the stock car. Just make sure you have some fresh brake fluid and go have a good time!
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      10-25-2011, 08:54 PM   #14
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Just wanted to add this helpful site I came across: http://www.bratten.org/TrackDays/

Does a great job of listing all the CA track events in one place. Also, if you look at the "links" section you will see links to a TON of great resources and information.
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      10-25-2011, 09:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcdedric View Post
Give them all a try! Hooked On Driving, Trackmasters, NASA, PCA, BMW CCA, etc. See which ones you prefer. Just another excuse to get your car on the track

Just speaking from my first time out at the track, there is no way in hell that I could have needed anything more than the stock car. Just make sure you have some fresh brake fluid and go have a good time!
^WHS. I like NCRC for a well run and very inexpensive track days. But you pay extra for an instructor (something I highly recommend) and the price becomes comparable to HOD and others.

If I had to do it all over again I'd go with NCRC for my first day (learn the flags, learn the track, get all of the overwhelming input under control, get some familiarity with procedures), then go with HOD or BMWCCA for a couple of days to get some serious instruction. The second and third time out with an instructor (via NCRC) was really good, and I learned a lot. But some have had variable experience with instruction, and HOD and others are totally geared in the instruction direction. NCRC's focus is more on a well run and affordable experience for more seasoned drivers.

Last edited by Finnegan; 10-25-2011 at 09:37 PM..
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      10-26-2011, 01:28 PM   #16
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http://www.explodingdinosaurs.com/firsttrackday/

This was a good first read for me.
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      02-16-2012, 05:50 PM   #17
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I can't wait to get my baby back! Reading these threads I want to be out on the track.

Upgrade the driver first, as others have said. I wanted to throw a bunch of money into the car when i first got it too and luckily was able to hold off until I felt I'd reached the edge of my limits. I plan on getting the SS brake lines and some new pads/fluid when I get back to the states but other than that, push yourself and most improatntly, HAVE FUN!
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      03-04-2012, 05:54 PM   #18
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Update: My car is almost squared away. Will be installing new brake pads, steel lines, and fluid shortly.

What's the transmission/diff fluid change policy when tracking a few times a year? I have 32K miles on the car so far after the 1200 mile fluid change. The diff fluid is a year newer because I needed to get the FM Booster. Should I change it before my first track day?

Anyway, I plan on doing the training at NCRC soon so when you see a slow bronze coupe, you'll know who it is
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      03-04-2012, 07:55 PM   #19
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Good Luck with the track stuff. I have a friend who just became an instructor here in Atlanta and he is trying to convince me to track mine, but not sure about it. I think I want to break mine in for a little while before I attempt this route.
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      03-04-2012, 08:21 PM   #20
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As a DE Chair I can recommend a few things. First if this is a BMWCCA HPDE you will have to have a brake fluid flush within 6 months of the event. That is standard requirement on the Tech Sheet you should have filled out by a shop before the event.
First DE, a front pads like Hawk HP's basically something with a better bite than stock pads.
Stainless brake lines are a great bang for the buck! and you're flushing your lines anyway.
Fluid should be better than stock maybe Castrol 600 or 660. Tha Hankook V12's are a great tire choice for your first DE. Besides I have an instructor that's just as fast on street tires as others are on slicks. I can forward you our Tech Sheet if you need one.
And HAVE FUN! you will get hooked!
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      03-05-2012, 11:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aestheticstorm View Post
Update: My car is almost squared away. Will be installing new brake pads, steel lines, and fluid shortly.

What's the transmission/diff fluid change policy when tracking a few times a year? I have 32K miles on the car so far after the 1200 mile fluid change. The diff fluid is a year newer because I needed to get the FM Booster. Should I change it before my first track day?

Anyway, I plan on doing the training at NCRC soon so when you see a slow bronze coupe, you'll know who it is
I wouldn't worry about transmission/diff fluids now.

Are you doing a HPDS or Skills Day/Car Control Clinic?
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      03-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #22
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My only question would be if this is your daily driver can you really afford to risk wadding it up? Do you rely on this car to get you to and from your job? My many years of road racing superbikes has taught me if something can go wrong it most likely will and lots of shit happens on a racetrack that are completely out of your control...even the best and most careful drivers in the world are not going to avoid being rear-ended by the guy behind you that has brake failure, or the two guys that wad it up 100 ft ahead of you and one of their wheels become unattached and suddenly end up in your front seat. If you do not have alternative transportation I would suggest limiting your track use with this car.
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