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      02-04-2016, 07:23 AM   #1
SaltyNC
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Oiled Filter Causes MAF Issues a Myth?

I just recently installed a Gruppe-M intake, and it uses an oiled conical K&N air filter. I had read the reports of MAF sensor fouling, small reductions in HP, etc. While researching the MAF sensor issues, I came across this. Obviously, K&N has a vested interest in disputing the claim that oiled filters foul MAF sensors. However, I think they provided some good information. If nothing else, it is an interesting counterpoint to the stories we hear. Check it out and make your own determination.

Link to 4 part video:

http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm

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      02-04-2016, 07:33 AM   #2
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http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
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      02-04-2016, 08:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Interesting article. A ton of car parts are sold only on advertising with virtually no outside testing/verification (or at least anything I have seen).

I never saw enough benefits to K&N to deal with the downsides (initial cost, cleaning, re-oiling, possible MAF issues).
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      02-04-2016, 08:31 AM   #4
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Mobile One oil is another product that is sold only on advertising......
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      02-04-2016, 10:55 AM   #5
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Much of the benefit of the K&N filter is the packaging. Aftermarket FI systems can't run an OEM filter box. I think a small performance benefit can be had with a well-maintained system, and there can be a degradation in performance if a filter isn't maintained. I noticed increased performance with an aFe intake on my Z4M, as have others, but it wasn't night and day. The main reason I would install a mod like that is to increase the volume of the S54's iconic intake growl, to make driving more enjoyable.

The MAF issues are not a myth, but are also rare and mostly due to user error. The MAF sensor uses a hot wire in the intake, and its resistance changes with temperature. The MAF sensor incorporates a separate temperature sensor too. The change in current, due to the airflow cooling the wire, is measured and mass flow can be calculated (using ambient temperature and change in temperature of the wire).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor

If oil from the filter gets on the wire, it affects its readings. This causes the ECU to miscalculate the mass flow rate of the air, and therefore the amount of fuel required. This can result in anything from a small power loss to misfiring engine.

It's not hard to use the right amount of oil with the filter. I've used K&N for years on multiple vehicles, and I've never had a problem with the MAF sensor.
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      02-04-2016, 11:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Great information, Shipkiller.

My indie mechanic wanted to install a K&N filter in my OEM air box, and I told him to stick with the OEM paper one, because I didn't want to spend extra money on a filter that offered no benefits, because I was planning on buying an intake that sounded great with a filter that offered no benefits. True story. I never expected any gains from the intake. I was after the sound.

That is interesting about the amount of dirt that gets by a K&N filter compared to a paper filter. I know that no increase in dust is good for an engine, but if the oil is doing its job, is it enough to ever cause wear that could be detected in 150K miles, assuming oil was changed at ~7500 miles and the filter was regularly cleaned? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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      02-04-2016, 12:31 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Mobile One oil is another product that is sold only on advertising......
Based on what? Best I can tell (no real tests or proof) all oil is sold on advertising and them telling me things that I need that may or may not make a substantial difference to the life of my engine and when in reality virtually no one keeps their car long enough to have an issue related to the quality of any name brand oil.
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      02-04-2016, 04:45 PM   #8
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I have the K&N stock replacement.
I go easy on the oil and a few days after cleaning and re-oiling, I pull the MAF and give it a good sprinse with CRC MAF cleaner.

I always wonder if CRC MAF cleaner, Throttle Body cleaner, and Brakleen are all the same stuff.

And I think K&N Filter Cleaner is watered down Dawn.
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      02-04-2016, 05:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StickMon View Post
I have the K&N stock replacement.
I go easy on the oil and a few days after cleaning and re-oiling, I pull the MAF and give it a good sprinse with CRC MAF cleaner.

I always wonder if CRC MAF cleaner, Throttle Body cleaner, and Brakleen are all the same stuff.

And I think K&N Filter Cleaner is watered down Dawn.

CRC MAF cleaner is mostly Naphtha with a little n-Hexane, iso-octane, and alcohol.

Brakleen is Perchloroethylene.

CRC Throttle Body cleaner is 90% acetone with some trace amounts of hexanes and naphtha.

K&N filter cleaner contains sodium metasilicate pentahydrate.

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      02-04-2016, 07:00 PM   #10
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My MAF failed and I've never ran oiled filter. That whole "oiled filter destroyed my MAF" IS a myth. MAF failures are random and most of the time, time related.

My MAF failed at 46,XXX miles on the ODO, and 9 years, 5 months into the ownership.
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      02-04-2016, 07:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyNC View Post
CRC MAF cleaner is mostly Naphtha with a little n-Hexane, iso-octane, and alcohol.

Brakleen is Perchloroethylene.

CRC Throttle Body cleaner is 90% acetone with some trace amounts of hexanes and naphtha.

K&N filter cleaner contains sodium metasilicate pentahydrate.

Salty
Wow, thanks.
I figured it was all just the same ethyl-fornicate in differently labeled cans.

Kidding aside, good to know.
I can probably use Brakleen to remove solder flux and Throttle Body cleaner to remove glue residue.
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      02-04-2016, 09:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StickMon View Post
Wow, thanks.
I figured it was all just the same ethyl-fornicate in differently labeled cans.

Kidding aside, good to know.
I can probably use Brakleen to remove solder flux and Throttle Body cleaner to remove glue residue.
I just looked up the MSDS (material safety data sheets for those products).

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      02-05-2016, 07:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
My MAF failed and I've never ran oiled filter. That whole "oiled filter destroyed my MAF" IS a myth. MAF failures are random and most of the time, time related.

My MAF failed at 46,XXX miles on the ODO, and 9 years, 5 months into the ownership.
Based on what? Having one fail without oil also doesn't prove anything besides some fail regardless of what you do.

Not trying to be a jerk in this thread but I read so many different things presented as fact and most of the time can't tell if it is really based on a study/data or just someone's opinion. Nothing wrong with people's opinions just would like to know.
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      02-05-2016, 08:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Based on what? Having one fail without oil also doesn't prove anything besides some fail regardless of what you do.

Not trying to be a jerk in this thread but I read so many different things presented as fact and most of the time can't tell if it is really based on a study/data or just someone's opinion. Nothing wrong with people's opinions just would like to know.
What I do is learn how things work and draw my own conclusions. I'm not implying you don't already have good knowledge of the car... only that you will get a lot of opinions on the forums, and knowing how <part> functions will help you separate fact from myth.

Fact - oil on the MAF wiring will affect readings, and an inaccurate MAF sensor will cause engine problems. I can't see how that can be argued, but I've got an open mind and I'm listening...

Opinion - I can see likelihood and severity being debated. From personal experience I think it's unlikely oil will get onto the MAF sensor, as in somebody knows somebody whose brother had it happen to him. And who's to say the guy didn't ignore the instructions and spray the oil onto the filter with it still on the car, and use way too much. As far as severity is concerned, yeah, I can see oil damaging the sensor due to a chemical reaction over time (not my **** of expertise so I would have to look up a few things, but it sounds like other guys on here already know this stuff); or from maxing out the MAF's range (I'm not sure what the specific heat of the K&N oil is, but water is about 4 times air, and oils are usually 1.5-2 times air). FWIW, my non-M's MAF failed shortly after I oriented it incorrectly during my supercharger install, but I haven't concluded that running with the MAF sensor maxed out causes any damage to it. It could have been age, mileage, anything really...
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      02-05-2016, 10:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Based on what? Having one fail without oil also doesn't prove anything besides some fail regardless of what you do.

Not trying to be a jerk in this thread but I read so many different things presented as fact and most of the time can't tell if it is really based on a study/data or just someone's opinion. Nothing wrong with people's opinions just would like to know.
I thought they did a good job on the K&N videos of explaining most MAF failures and their testing procedures. However, we have a hot wire MAF sensor, and I don't know if they specifically tested those. They did make a reference to hot wire sensors being the most prone to damage. BTW, the wire on our MAF sensor that is visible is not the hot wire -- it's inside the plastic housing. They dipped the other kind of MAF sensor in oil, and it still worked, but I am confident that would not work on our hot wire style MAF sensor. If oil coats the hot wire in our sensor, I believe it would cause problems.

But one thing I found interesting is that when K&N measured the airflow across the filter, even at very high throttle, it was something like 12 MPH. Most of the time, it was 1-3 MPH. Keep in mind, this involves surface area, so a small volume of air is being drawn across the entire surface area which results in very fast air speed once it is reduced and drawn into the engine, but it is the air speed on the surface of the filter that would have any potential of drawing oil off the filter and fouling the MAF hot wire in our cars.

At any rate, I guess I'll see, because I'm running a K&N pre-oiled filter in the Gruppe-M intake. I'll check for oil past the filter after a few months.

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      02-05-2016, 11:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Based on what?
Based on the fact that I had an oiled filter on my 323Ci for 5+ years and 100,000 miles and never had a single problem with that car's MAF.

MAF failures are random and more time related, and has little to NOTHING to do with oiled filters. And I'm saying this only because I worked, however briefly, at a company that produces automotive air filters (not K&N). EXTENSIVE tests have been done on this matter, both by the companies involved and third party testing facilities.

In fact, said myth has been perpetrated for so long, that there's an entire industry of "dry" synthetic gauze filters that sprung up just to take advantage of the marketing opportunity.
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      02-05-2016, 03:48 PM   #17
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^ WHS
Almost 5 years now with the K&N. Still on the 10 year old original MAF. Still works.
I have a new one in my spare parts stash in case I just jinxed myself.
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