ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   ZPOST > BMW Z4 Technical Talk > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications
  TireRack

SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-30-2014, 10:10 PM   #1
BKKz4
Registered
1
Rep
4
Posts

Drives: 2.5i
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangkok

iTrader: (0)

ESS Tuning - Supercharged 2.5 - Anyone?

My local dealer got a great deal on the ESS Tuning Supercharger kit including installation and i am thinking about getting it done.

Link: http://europeanautosource.com/ess-tu...5-e86-z4m.html

My Z4 is 9 years old, got around 30k miles on it and is overall in pretty decent shape. I use the car as daily driver and don't want to blow up the engine anytime soon. What kind of life expectancy can get with the supercharger installed? I plan to keep the car for at least another 30k miles and trade it in / resell it.

Thanks in advance
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2014, 02:01 AM   #2
Lightning87
Private
3
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: Bmw Z4 2.5i
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Netherlands

iTrader: (0)

ESS kits are quite good, and they won't blow up youre engine. is it a twinscrew kit ? that's a nice kit.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2014, 02:01 PM   #3
pokeybritches
Colonel
pokeybritches's Avatar
United_States
479
Rep
2,782
Posts

Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 BMW Z4M  [10.00]
2006 BMW Z4M  [8.50]
2003 BMW Z4 3.0i  [9.00]
You will probably need to get a clutch with more torque capacity, but your car should be otherwise fine. The supercharger will not blow up the engine unless you have an underlying issue. It's safe.

My G-Power kit on the M makes a lot more torque than my VF kit on my 3.0i, and I rarely rev above 6k rpm now. I used to see redline every day. In that sense, the life of the engine has been improved with the supercharger strapped on. The ESS twin screw kit makes a lot more torque than a centrifugal kit, so you won't need to wind out the engine to get going. The downside to that torque is the clutch "upgrade" required.
__________________


VF Engineering Z4 3.0i, ESS Z4M, G-Power Z4M, 996 Turbo
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2014, 02:16 PM   #4
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

The clutch won't be a problem, even with a twinscrew setup.

I drive around with a 3.0i with TS2+ setup (so with schrick cams etc) which makes 342 lb-ft/465 Nm (which is even more than the g-power z4m SK1 set is rated for), and my stock clutch still holds (and I'm not a careful driver).

With a standard 2,5i twinscrew you will not make as much torque as with the 3.0i, and the 2,5i has the same clutch plate diameter as the 3,0i has. So I don't forsee any problems when you go for a stock ESS TS1 or TS2 system.
Obviously you do have to shift properly (=apply full power in the max torque rpm range only when clutch is fully engaged), but that goes for every performance car.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2014, 06:25 PM   #5
pokeybritches
Colonel
pokeybritches's Avatar
United_States
479
Rep
2,782
Posts

Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 BMW Z4M  [10.00]
2006 BMW Z4M  [8.50]
2003 BMW Z4 3.0i  [9.00]
I hope you're quoting the G-Power 3.0i kit, because my M puts down a whole lot more than that haha.

You're the first person I've heard of that doesn't think the clutch needs to be uprated. There are many others with the kit that have had to also buy new clutches to support the added torque. Better to budget for it and not need it than to be surprised later...
__________________


VF Engineering Z4 3.0i, ESS Z4M, G-Power Z4M, 996 Turbo
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2014, 02:07 AM   #6
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
I hope you're quoting the G-Power 3.0i kit, because my M puts down a whole lot more than that haha.
I said rated. G-power rates the z4m sk1 kit on their website for 460Nm:
http://www.g-power.com/962.html?L=1&...#Produkt_Start
"Basis: M3 E46, 343 hp (252 kW) increased to 450 hp (330 kW)/ 460 Nm"

I did not make any claims how much torque your car makes.

Quote:
You're the first person I've heard of that doesn't think the clutch needs to be uprated. There are many others with the kit that have had to also buy new clutches to support the added torque. Better to budget for it and not need it than to be surprised later...
Then I'm apparently the first guy that knows how to shift properly....
As long as you dont apply excessive power during the shift, the clutch has no extra wear. When the clutch is engaged, and doesnt slip under power (and it wont, my car is proof), a clutch doesn't experience any wear at all. So for a 2.5i that won't be a problem at all.

Only when you're 'powerclutching' (accelerate during clutching), then the clutch will experience extra wear compared to stock setup.
So only persons who are planning to do the latter (or don't know how to drive) need to budget in an uprated clutch.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t

Last edited by GuidoK; 07-02-2014 at 02:24 AM..
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2014, 12:39 PM   #7
pokeybritches
Colonel
pokeybritches's Avatar
United_States
479
Rep
2,782
Posts

Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 BMW Z4M  [10.00]
2006 BMW Z4M  [8.50]
2003 BMW Z4 3.0i  [9.00]
I'm still not sure why you're looking up a Z4M kit to quote in a thread about the ESS TS2 for the 2.5i.

A clutch that's worn will not have the same holding capacity as one that's new. While OP's clutch may hold with stock power levels, it is not unrealistic to think that 50% more torque will overwhelm it.

I am fairly easy on the clutch, but my 3.0i's began to show signs of failure and had to be replaced 2k miles ago. I'm guessing a large portion of the wear came from the previous owner (I bought the car at 55k miles). Signs of failure were not present when I was at full throttle. It was "holding" just fine. It was, however, dragging between quick gear changes. Foot completely off the gas, clutch in, shift, clutch out, and rpm would drag down to the appropriate speed in the new gear. So... my point is there are multiple failure indicators beyond ultimate holding capacity, and that capacity is reduced with wear.

I'm not advocating to immediately replace the stock clutch. Budget for it, and don't be shocked when it happens.
__________________


VF Engineering Z4 3.0i, ESS Z4M, G-Power Z4M, 996 Turbo
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2014, 05:02 PM   #8
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

what can I say, my car has done about 80k miles total with about 20k miles boosted with pretty hard (hard but correct) use.
There have been 2 times that I pushed the torque through the clutch capacity, and that is with very hard shifting where full power is applied when the clutch is still not 100% engaged. The way NOT to do it so to speak (sometimes even I make a slipup....)

For the rest it's still just fine.
As long as the clutch holds on full torque, it's fine. There's no other parameter.
I don't know what you mean by dragging. If you release the clutch after upshift it's supposed to slow down the revs to the gear-matched amount.
The hydraulic clutch is self adjusting.

And certainly when the TS isn't planning on cams&headers&elevated boost (and knows how to shift; adding boost is an easy way to destroy your clutch faster) it will be fine.

I run with 90Nm more torque than a ts2 is rated for (according to ESS) with the 2.5i with the same clutch plate. For me that says enough.
Budgetting for a new clutch is something you can advise for every car in every condition other than brand new. It is a wear item heavily subjected to the way it is driven. Spirited driving wears it more than normal shifting on lower revs etc.

Also an uprated clutch can be very influential on the driveability. This car is a daily driver, and no one wants to be stuck in traffic with a racing clutch
From that pov alone I wouldn't advise an uprated clutch (unless you can test the product on forehand in an identical vehicle)
(but from that pov I also wouldn't advise tuning/adding boost)

The TS should budget in things that are more affected on power. Tyres, but maybe also some bushings etc, maybe a new MAF. Adding power will always speed up wear in numerous ways. Not that he needs an uprated clutch for that; there is no relation between the wear/life and torque capability of an uprated clutch. Uprated clutches can handle more torque before slipping, they don't automatically have a longer life span. They will however eat faster through your flywheel.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t

Last edited by GuidoK; 07-02-2014 at 05:11 PM..
Appreciate 0
      07-05-2014, 10:52 AM   #9
pokeybritches
Colonel
pokeybritches's Avatar
United_States
479
Rep
2,782
Posts

Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 BMW Z4M  [10.00]
2006 BMW Z4M  [8.50]
2003 BMW Z4 3.0i  [9.00]
The rpm dragging down has to do with the engine spinning at a greater speed than it would be in the new gear, like when changing gears too quickly during a 7000 rpm redline shift. If the speed isn't matched when the clutch pedal is released and clutch engaged, that energy in the spinning engine and flywheel is sent through the drivetrain and out the weakest link. Assuming that shock doesn't cause any part of the drivetrain to fail catastrophically, it will usually cause the rear tires to chirp (meaning adhesion to the road is the weakest link). A failing clutch can be the weakest link, in which case it will slip and the rpm will drag down over the course of a second or so, instead of immediately matching to the new gear.

It will sound like the driver is trying to add power before fully releasing the clutch pedal, but the driver isn't giving any throttle input. The clutch is slipping and failing, even if it is still capable of holding the maximum torque generated by the engine as per a dyno. When I experienced these signs of clutch failure, my car was holding torque perfectly fine while in gear. However, my centrifugal setup only generates about half as much peak torque delta as a twin screw setup. My points are that there are multiple signs of clutch failure beyond whether it can hold peak rated torque; a worn clutch does not have the same holding capacity as one that's new; and increasing the torque by a 50% comes with a high likelihood of clutch replacement.

Saying that replacing the clutch is something that "every car in every condition" should do downplays the risk involved with increasing torque by 50% or more. As one of our more educated forum members, you know that the holding capacity is determined by a lot more than clutch disc diameter. There's pressure, material friction, total surface area, etc. An assumption based on diameter alone is risky and only takes into account part of the equation. If the parts are otherwise the same - and I'm not going to look them up, because this isn't my car - then you can make some logical assumptions. You can't base it off of a single factor unless you make it clear you're assuming other variables are constant, and can make a case as to why that assumption is reasonable.

My advice to the OP is to budget for a clutch. If you have more time than money, do this - crosscheck parts to figure out which other BMW's have the same drivetrain, Google search for ESS kits on those cars, and then see what you find. PM other owners about their experiences. GuidoK didn't have to replace the clutch right away. I've known two others with a 3.0i that have had to replace it. I don't know anyone with an ESS kit on a 2.5i. How many are still on the stock clutch after 10-20k miles?

As far as driveability is concerned, yes it is something to consider. Switching from the OEM setup to a name brand, paired lightweight flywheel and clutch significantly IMPROVED driveability. I'm sure my car would be more difficult for a beginner to drive, but I find it easier to drive since it's more predictable. The slop is eliminated, the pressure is just right, and shifts are precise and intuitive. The point here is that increasing torque capacity does not automatically mean a reduction in driveability, but I do agree with you that it's something to consider. And I agree that you should take every opportunity to test a similar setup prior to buying, if you can find someone with it installed.
__________________


VF Engineering Z4 3.0i, ESS Z4M, G-Power Z4M, 996 Turbo
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2014, 05:21 AM   #10
mdella82
New Member
mdella82's Avatar
United_States
0
Rep
16
Posts

Drives: 2004 Bmw Z4
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2004 BMW z4  [0.00]
hey how much did you end up paying for the Supercharger kit?
__________________

“No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”
- Attributed to General George Patton Jr
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2014, 06:22 AM   #11
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
The rpm dragging down has to do with the engine spinning at a greater speed than it would be in the new gear, like when changing gears too quickly during a 7000 rpm redline shift. If the speed isn't matched when the clutch pedal is released and clutch engaged, that energy in the spinning engine and flywheel is sent through the drivetrain and out the weakest link. Assuming that shock doesn't cause any part of the drivetrain to fail catastrophically, it will usually cause the rear tires to chirp (meaning adhesion to the road is the weakest link). A failing clutch can be the weakest link, in which case it will slip and the rpm will drag down over the course of a second or so, instead of immediately matching to the new gear.
That is something which is the same for a normal engine and a supercharged engine. The supercharger doesn't add kinetic energy to the moving parts in the engine thus does not cause any more strain to the clutch when shifting without applying power.
The way you describe shifting (this is upshifting you describe) is like normal shifting. The speed that you operate the clutch and gearbox dictate if the engine (flywheel) gives extra kinetic energy to the clutch, the clutch&flywheel are matched or the drivetrain gives kinetic energy to the engine.
I don't see the problem because your explanation doesn't differ for a normal engine or a supercharged engine in (potential) wear. It is normal clutch operation.
ESS also doesn't advise an uprated race clutch (certainly not in a daily driver!). I guess they are wrong too? They advise that on a TS3 level, but that is a completely different game.
It's like I said: the stock clutch can handle the torque, it will NOT slip (my car is prove as it runs on far greater torque with the same clutch). Also an uprated clutch with larger torque capacity doesn't automatically means that that will have a longer life! (for both the clutch plate and the flywheel!) It only means that it wont slip under higer torque. Most of the time a race clutch has a rubbish lifespan compared to the OEM product (which IS designed for maximum lifespan). It is designed to handle torque (and not slip under really abusive clutching with full power applied), not have a long life. The sintered blocks they sometimes have can have a small surface and can eat through flywheels.

For the TS' situation (2,5i with ts2) the clutch is at risk only if he doesn't know how to shift.
But I think the TS maybe shouldn't begin at FI because he writes it's his daily driver. FI can cause rough idle, vacuum hoses (and other hoses) to leak (especially the ts setup requires to adjust/make some new pipework), it can ruin your cats (rich running, soot) etc etc.
Those are some of the things to expect that will ultimately limit the end mileage the engine will make even when you're not stressing it hard all the time (which is likely: you don't daily drive with 100% power all the time, you're mostly driving behind the car in front of you, especially in bangkok). It is just how you plan the lifespan of the car. If you plan to do 200k+ miles without big problems or replacing expensive parts, don't FI.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t

Last edited by GuidoK; 07-19-2014 at 06:43 AM..
Appreciate 0
      07-20-2014, 10:36 AM   #12
pokeybritches
Colonel
pokeybritches's Avatar
United_States
479
Rep
2,782
Posts

Drives: ESS/G-Power Z4M, VF Z4, 996tt
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 BMW Z4M  [10.00]
2006 BMW Z4M  [8.50]
2003 BMW Z4 3.0i  [9.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
ESS also doesn't advise an uprated race clutch (certainly not in a daily driver!). I guess they are wrong too? They advise that on a TS3 level, but that is a completely different game.
ESS is trying to sell supercharger kits. It is in their interest to make the price of entry appear as minimal as possible. Any good shop that has performed many FI installs on the M54 will recommend a new clutch (though it is in their best interest to tack on more labor for the clutch install). Agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Most of the time a race clutch has a rubbish lifespan compared to the OEM product (which IS designed for maximum lifespan). It is designed to handle torque (and not slip under really abusive clutching with full power applied), not have a long life. The sintered blocks they sometimes have can have a small surface and can eat through flywheels.
I don't disagree. The whole point of the uprated clutch is torque holding, or feel if you go for a lightweight clutch/flywheel combo. I stuck with organic for this very reason. Beyond what you have written, there are other factors too... like how the clutch handle excessive heat (kevlar does not recover from being overheated) and abuse. Organic has the best characteristics for a mildly boosted street car in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
But I think the TS maybe shouldn't begin at FI because he writes it's his daily driver. FI can cause rough idle, vacuum hoses (and other hoses) to leak (especially the ts setup requires to adjust/make some new pipework), it can ruin your cats (rich running, soot) etc etc.
Those are some of the things to expect that will ultimately limit the end mileage the engine will make even when you're not stressing it hard all the time (which is likely: you don't daily drive with 100% power all the time, you're mostly driving behind the car in front of you, especially in bangkok). It is just how you plan the lifespan of the car. If you plan to do 200k+ miles without big problems or replacing expensive parts, don't FI.
Agree 100%.
__________________


VF Engineering Z4 3.0i, ESS Z4M, G-Power Z4M, 996 Turbo
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST