ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   ZPOST > BMW Z4 Technical Talk > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications
  TireRack

SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-06-2015, 05:32 PM   #23
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub
tbh the damper on these cars is a known failure point.... they dry out and fail leaving engine damaging vibrations behind.... the ATI fluid filled unit stops the issue!!
Let's just say that is far from definitive , My engine builder has used the ATI dampers before for customers and let's just say they are not necessarily bolt on and forget it options .They had to "tune "them .FYI the damper and pulley with the ATI is one piece so the supercharger pulley wouldn't work , and a one off custom job def could have issues . The damper is such an important piece for the motor ,( like the dual mass flywheel ) that the builder and myself have decided to stick with OEM. ATI makes quality products though , I'm in the OEM whenever possible phase based on my experieces at this point .
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2015, 01:19 AM   #24
Beedub
Major General
United Kingdom
423
Rep
5,327
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Let's just say that is far from definitive , My engine builder has used the ATI dampers before for customers and let's just say they are not necessarily bolt on and forget it options .They had to "tune "them .FYI the damper and pulley with the ATI is one piece so the supercharger pulley wouldn't work , and a one off custom job def could have issues . The damper is such an important piece for the motor ,( like the dual mass flywheel ) that the builder and myself have decided to stick with OEM. ATI makes quality products though , I'm in the OEM whenever possible phase based on my experieces at this point .
very solid info george. invaluable tbh...
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2015, 02:04 AM   #25
tikamak
Captain
Lebanon
58
Rep
912
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M Roadster TiAG/black
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Beirut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Let's just say that is far from definitive , My engine builder has used the ATI dampers before for customers and let's just say they are not necessarily bolt on and forget it options .They had to "tune "them .FYI the damper and pulley with the ATI is one piece so the supercharger pulley wouldn't work , and a one off custom job def could have issues . The damper is such an important piece for the motor ,( like the dual mass flywheel ) that the builder and myself have decided to stick with OEM. ATI makes quality products though , I'm in the OEM whenever possible phase based on my experieces at this point .
I actually got the ATI damper but after taking a look at it, i figured that it wouldn't be a simple bolt on. The damper is 3.6 mm thicker than the OEM damper and is designed and dyno tested to run the S54 at 11000 RPM if all the other internals can take it

I would need either a new supercharger pulley that is 3.6mm inwards in the direction of the crankshaft or i would need a set of 3.6mm washers to put on all other pulleys.

There's also some weight difference that would create some glitches with our OEM-like tunes, I figured that it won't simply work without a hassle. i could be wrong.

I end up not installing it since the OEM damper practically looked like new knowing that i don't spend 100% of the time near 8000 RPM and i also retained the dual mass flywheel.
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2015, 02:19 AM   #26
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
very solid info george. invaluable tbh...
The ATI superdamper also has rubber (rubber o rings) inside, so that will also dry out / wear / age. But from what I can see they are 100% rebuildable, so it's more like maintenance and it's pretty much a lifetime product. Very nicely constructed I must say.
On youtube they have a series how they rebuild those dampers.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2015, 02:28 AM   #27
tikamak
Captain
Lebanon
58
Rep
912
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M Roadster TiAG/black
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Beirut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
The problem is the rod bearing design which is why I went with my engine builders approach of using a larger bearing and regrinding the crank. As far as oil viscosity you need to pick it according to bearing clearance, rpm use of the motor and operating temperature.Our motors with a relatively "loose clearance" and narrow bearings requires a higher viscosity oil to maintain film strength at high temps and rpms. At high temperatures and rpms the last thing you want is thinner oil as the film strength will break down and you will have increased wear. On track I see sustained oil temperatures over 250 degrees so 0-40 would literally turn to water. I have been using Motul V-spec 15w-50 and was very pleased with its stability (its viscosity did not decrease over time like the Castrol 10-60 and my engine wear during its use was excellent despite HARD use. It also has one of the stoutest additive packages of any oil available and is a true Gen V ester . I have never seen oil look so good after a track day. Honestly the increased flow of the VAC oil pump may help keep oil pressure up at high temps but it will have no effect on the bearing oil film stability. I had to replace my pump bc of damage so I went ahead with it. How does the 0-40 look on oil analysis?
I am not capable of getting an oil analysis in this area of the world.
I will try to look for a close oil analysis firm.
I'm still at the break-in phase though.

The 15w-50 would be more suitable for your application, I chose 0w-40 because my car is basically street driving with some spirited driving and because the design of the rod bearings (2000 S54) was made with a castrol 5w-30 full synthetic oil.

The Castrol 10w-60 TWS was created after laps and laps on the track and should only be used for drivers that regularly take their cars to the track and drive very aggressively. In all cases, the 10w-60 is a severely upgraded 10w-40 with a high amount of additives to form an oil that is similar to a 60 weight on 100 degrees Celcius.

I'm not saying it's not good to use it, I'm saying that if you use it with street driving you might have bearing issues like i have found in my engine.
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2015, 07:44 AM   #28
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
I am not capable of getting an oil analysis in this area of the world.
I will try to look for a close oil analysis firm.
I'm still at the break-in phase though.

The 15w-50 would be more suitable for your application, I chose 0w-40 because my car is basically street driving with some spirited driving and because the design of the rod bearings (2000 S54) was made with a castrol 5w-30 full synthetic oil.

The Castrol 10w-60 TWS was created after laps and laps on the track and should only be used for drivers that regularly take their cars to the track and drive very aggressively. In all cases, the 10w-60 is a severely upgraded 10w-40 with a high amount of additives to form an oil that is similar to a 60 weight on 100 degrees Celcius.

I'm not saying it's not good to use it, I'm saying that if you use it with street driving you might have bearing issues like i have found in my engine.
But the engineers never intended for the S54 to rev to 8000 rpm, thus the S54 in the Z3M roadster has a 7800 rpm limit. In the US we had a massive recall after multiple cars spun bearings on the 5-30. BMW revised the bearing material and then made the Castrol 10-60 the required oil. You are correct about the 10-60 being based off of a 0-40 though , it actually has a lower viscosity after one track day than the Motul 15-50 does after several.It breaks down rapidly. My concern with you using 0-40 in a hot climate is that your bearing wear was from spirited driving not the 10-60. You needed more film strength at the bearing surface not less.
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2015, 08:13 AM   #29
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
very solid info george. invaluable tbh...
Thanks!. Here is the link to Lang racing's article on their bearing modification.
http://www.langracing.com/finding-a-...aring-failure/
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2015, 12:08 AM   #30
tikamak
Captain
Lebanon
58
Rep
912
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M Roadster TiAG/black
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Beirut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
But the engineers never intended for the S54 to rev to 8000 rpm, thus the S54 in the Z3M roadster has a 7800 rpm limit. In the US we had a massive recall after multiple cars spun bearings on the 5-30. BMW revised the bearing material and then made the Castrol 10-60 the required oil. You are correct about the 10-60 being based off of a 0-40 though , it actually has a lower viscosity after one track day than the Motul 15-50 does after several.It breaks down rapidly. My concern with you using 0-40 in a hot climate is that your bearing wear was from spirited driving not the 10-60. You needed more film strength at the bearing surface not less.
I actually know the story differently, the rod bearings were due to a rod design issue.

The oil 5w-30 was replaced due to S54 burning a lot of it before the next oil change and the maintenance interval was set at an aggressive 15000 miles.

I agree with you that a 5w-30 oil will cause problems but a mobil1 0w40 probably is better than the original 10w-60

I am grey on this whole subject so i cant reinforce my ideas further. I will maybe try to find an oil analysis to see how the 0w-40 is holding up.
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2015, 05:24 AM   #31
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
But the engineers never intended for the S54 to rev to 8000 rpm, thus the S54 in the Z3M roadster has a 7800 rpm limit. In the US we had a massive recall after multiple cars spun bearings on the 5-30. BMW revised the bearing material and then made the Castrol 10-60 the required oil. You are correct about the 10-60 being based off of a 0-40 though , it actually has a lower viscosity after one track day than the Motul 15-50 does after several.It breaks down rapidly. My concern with you using 0-40 in a hot climate is that your bearing wear was from spirited driving not the 10-60. You needed more film strength at the bearing surface not less.
I actually know the story differently, the rod bearings were due to a rod design issue.

The oil 5w-30 was replaced due to S54 burning a lot of it before the next oil change and the maintenance interval was set at an aggressive 15000 miles.

I agree with you that a 5w-30 oil will cause problems but a mobil1 0w40 probably is better than the original 10w-60

I am grey on this whole subject so i cant reinforce my ideas further. I will maybe try to find an oil analysis to see how the 0w-40 is holding up.
Read the article I linked . BMW recalled their bearings in 2003 , never the rods . It goes into the technical reason they switched viscosity , increased bearing clearance with the replacement bearings . It wasn't because of burning oil I'm 100% certain .
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2015, 05:31 AM   #32
tikamak
Captain
Lebanon
58
Rep
912
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M Roadster TiAG/black
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Beirut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Read the article I linked . BMW recalled their bearings in 2003 , never the rods . It goes into the technical reason they switched viscosity , increased bearing clearance with the replacement bearings . It wasn't because of burning oil I'm 100% certain .
I read the article, i know pretty well about lang racing and Andrew
They change the rod bearings as a bad patch from 2000 till 2003 and a half and changed the rod bolts and rods as well to M11 instead of M10

The oil viscosity change happened in 2001 before they realized the rod bearing issue and is unrelated, trust me, i'm sure of this, basically BMW didn't think that people would outdrive the 5w-30 castrol edge.

if you check your engine cover you can still use the 5w-30 if 10w-60 is not available
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2015, 06:12 AM   #33
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Read the article I linked . BMW recalled their bearings in 2003 , never the rods . It goes into the technical reason they switched viscosity , increased bearing clearance with the replacement bearings . It wasn't because of burning oil I'm 100% certain .
I read the article, i know pretty well about lang racing and Andrew
They change the rod bearings as a bad patch from 2000 till 2003 and a half and changed the rod bolts and rods as well to M11 instead of M10

The oil viscosity change happened in 2001 before they realized the rod bearing issue and is unrelated, trust me, i'm sure of this, basically BMW didn't think that people would outdrive the 5w-30 castrol edge.

if you check your engine cover you can still use the 5w-30 if 10w-60 is not available
The bearing recall didn't occur until 2003 , and in the US any way it says use only Castrol TWS 10-60 .
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2015, 06:18 AM   #34
tikamak
Captain
Lebanon
58
Rep
912
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M Roadster TiAG/black
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Beirut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
The bearing recall didn't occur until 2003 , and in the US any way it says use only Castrol TWS 10-60 .
Exactly, that's why i'm telling you the oil change and the rod bearing design flaw are not related.

Just to clarify that this argument have nothing to do with the fact that the bearings are too narrow for the S54. the lang racing solution is by far the most effective solution at tackling this problem
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2015, 07:42 AM   #35
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Exactly, that's why i'm telling you the oil change and the rod bearing design flaw are not related.

Just to clarify that this argument have nothing to do with the fact that the bearings are too narrow for the S54. the lang racing solution is by far the most effective solution at tackling this problem
They did the oil first in 2001 after the first round of failures because it was the cheapest solution and only changed hardware after the continued failures. Not one of BMW's strongest moments.
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2015, 09:41 AM   #36
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Update

I received my Sachs Racing clutch kit yesterday from Germany . Nice looking setup and very light. Can't wait to get installed . Again the key advantage of this kit is it is designed to work with the Dual mass flywheel. I am 100% certain my intake cam bolt failure was related to vibration from the lightweight flywheel. Should have my motor back from Lang Racing around the first week of March . I'm so going through track withdrawal but it will be worth it . Interesting freebie they put in with the kits lol .
Attached Images
   

Last edited by gmd2003; 02-21-2015 at 09:57 AM..
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2015, 11:15 AM   #37
Beedub
Major General
United Kingdom
423
Rep
5,327
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

nice clutch upgrade!!! hopefully it all mates up correctly and doesn't cause any issues!
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2015, 11:26 AM   #38
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub
nice clutch upgrade!!! hopefully it all mates up correctly and doesn't cause any issues!
It's made by Sachs racing specifically for the Z4M with the stock dual mass . Almost zero chance it's not perfect . Nothing beats an OEM race product .
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2015, 05:20 PM   #39
Beedub
Major General
United Kingdom
423
Rep
5,327
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4 M roadster vt2-500
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
It's made by Sachs racing specifically for the Z4M with the stock dual mass . Almost zero chance it's not perfect . Nothing beats an OEM race product .
please be sure to post up the part numbers used to order this product.
__________________
Z4MR VT2 - Clubsport build.
Multi award winning Detailing | Wrap | PPF specialists UK based - www.topwrapz.com
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2015, 05:42 PM   #40
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
It's made by Sachs racing specifically for the Z4M with the stock dual mass . Almost zero chance it's not perfect . Nothing beats an OEM race product .
please be sure to post up the part numbers used to order this product.
Here is the link .
http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sach..._496_4401.html
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2015, 03:47 PM   #41
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Update

Got some pics today of the custom Carrillo rods and the new crank with widened rod bearing journals . Pretty sure these rods would survive nuclear war lol .
Attached Images
    
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2015, 08:12 PM   #42
inTgr8r
Lieutenant General
inTgr8r's Avatar
Canada
2422
Rep
11,665
Posts

Drives: M2 Comp
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (10)

Sexy...
__________________
'21 M2C Hockenheim Silver
'18 718 Cayman S Lava Orange (sold)
'13 E92 M3 Santorini Blue (sold)
'07 Z4 M Coupe Alpine White (sold)
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2015, 08:43 PM   #43
NickyC
Lieutenant General
NickyC's Avatar
17356
Rep
10,602
Posts

Drives: M4 CS. Former G82, x2 F82, F80
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jacked out of my mind

iTrader: (23)

Love the Haribo!
Appreciate 0
      03-09-2015, 08:23 AM   #44
Steeler
Colonel
Steeler's Avatar
2422
Rep
2,697
Posts

Drives: Built not Bought 04 Z4 VF
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kitchener Ontario Canada

iTrader: (2)

Wow heavy duty beams
__________________
W2A Intercooled Vortech V3Si, custom ducting, Alpha N, 60# Bosch,2.62 pulley, multi port WMI, Severn Tuning(pokeybritches), Tial, magnaflow,SS race muffler, 42 design,3.91LSD, H&R, Hotchkis,ST coils,Konis, Megan camber arms, AKG SS, Nylon mounts, Poly bushings, Carbon interior, CF Aero.APEX
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST