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12-19-2010, 11:03 AM | #221 |
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Wow, twice as many E30 M3's as Z4M's; didn't realize just how low comparatively production numbers were for our cars.
Kind of scary, but then again many of the important parts (e.g., engine) were shared with other models, so parts should remain available in the future. |
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12-19-2010, 11:56 AM | #222 |
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Looks fun but doubt it is as fun as the Z4M! Curious to see all the car magazine tests that will be coming out on it!
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12-20-2010, 03:06 AM | #224 | |
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12-20-2010, 10:39 AM | #225 | |
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12-20-2010, 01:29 PM | #226 |
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That's strange.
Most people that have driven both the Cayman S and the Z4-M from this forum say the opposite. Not trying to start an argument, just saying that's all.
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12-20-2010, 02:04 PM | #227 | |
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I also believe that the given the same HP the Cayman S would no doubt put down the faster lap time, time and again. And as good as the e9*M chassis is you feel like your sitting on top of the roof of the e8*m chassis.
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12-20-2010, 02:16 PM | #228 | |
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The fact of the matter is that if you're going to compare a cayman S to the E86, you have to stay within the same generation to make it a "fair" comparison (which would be 987CS.1, not .2). Also, on the various P-Car forums (renntech, rennlist, 6peed, planet cayman, etc) whenever I've mentioned my M Coupe being faster than the same generation Cayman S, it's been crickets -- no one has rebutted in the slightest.
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12-20-2010, 02:17 PM | #229 |
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The Cayman S (edit: pre 09) was far superior on the handling department. The MZ4 Coupe had power advantage. Neither car, in my opinion, was superior taken as a whole package...It was really just a preference issue. The Cayman S felt more precise but also in a way, insulated and numb at the limits. The MZ4 Coupe is a handful but once you master the chassis, it is far more rewarding to drive and drive well. At the end of the day, had it not been for my distain for all things Porsche I might have ended up with a Cayman S instead of the MZ4 Coupe, since when I bought mine they were readily available rather than having to wait nearly 5 months after I placed my order for the MZ4 C.
On the quantities built and margins, this is something I read somewhere but can't supply the actual source for it since I don't usually bother to bookmark such things, but I recall that the Concept Coupe that was built, was design and put together by Magna Styer in Austria as a proposal to BMW using nothing but existing parts from BMW's own parts bin, and the ONLY parts that were re-designed were the roof, hatch, and minor modifications to the stamping for the rear fenders. It didn't cost BMW a dime to design the chassis. They in essence bought the Magna Styer concept for a much smaller amount of money typically required for a new chassis design, and slap on a couple of existing engines to make the E86. They had a pretty big margin buffer to start with, that's why they were able to offer nearly $9,000 in trunk cash once they realized that anyone who wanted one BAD like myself have already bought one and that the vast majority of their biggest market isn't capable of driving a small sporty car in a manual (for the M that is).
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12-20-2010, 02:42 PM | #230 |
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^^ IF by better you mean less involved and more boring. I test-drove one on my path to Z4MC ownership and was BORED to death with it. Felt like the wife could put down equal lap-times; and she only got her license in Sept. Point is out cars are involving and fun and more difficult to master. Something I feel is lacking in the Cayman S (not to mention our rides are MUCH better looking).
To each his/her own however. |
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12-20-2010, 02:56 PM | #231 | |
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Straight line punch was not impressive to me and the driver feedback through the chassis was rather remote. But you feel the opposite, so that proves as everyone else has said it is subjective and cannot be a definitive one is 'better' type response in this case.
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12-20-2010, 03:02 PM | #232 | ||
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But since we are on the topic and you seem to be on a car review rampage today I'll try to explain why I both agree with and couldn't care less about your reviews of the cayman S/Z4M & e9x m3/e46 m3. It's because the cayman S, like the e9x m3, is a cold soulless clinical robot of a car which will be throughly pointless and irrelevant as soon as Porsche & BMW release the next latest and greatest model. In 25 years not many will even remember or care about a cayman S, it will be swept under the rug while other rarer more exciting & charismatic cars take their place in enthusiasts hearts. So while on an engineering level the CS may have the Mz4 licked, just as the e9x m3 is "better" than an e46 m3; but the really great cars aren't defined by cornering speed, gizmo's or gadgets, or even a critic's consensus. Both the CS & 4th gen m3 were made solely to dominate the marketplace at a specific time & place but they both share the lack of charisma and personality to evoke a real positive emotional response 10 years down the road when they lack supreme statistics and are no longer the cutting edge. I get that everyone has differing opinions, and different people buy cars for different reasons but I see you missing the bigger picture. You can't define what's better by a lack of understeer or leather quality, because there is a lot more to it than that.
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12-20-2010, 03:08 PM | #233 | |
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Not specifically to compare the two vehicles in the example I used.
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12-20-2010, 03:09 PM | #234 | |
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12-20-2010, 03:25 PM | #235 | |
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12-20-2010, 03:34 PM | #236 | |
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12-20-2010, 05:19 PM | #237 | ||
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I'm judging the car not on ANYTHING else but SOLELY on how it MADE ME FEEL. Maybe that's a point you're not getting. It felt boring to me. Period. Unless ur saying we're not entitled to that and have to conform to your fan-boy rants? |
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12-20-2010, 06:53 PM | #238 | |
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Yes, as I said, most of the parts were available, but it is never as simple as slapping an exiting engine and parts together. It is a distinct product and there are all sorts of issues that need to be managed and tested. Also, you need to make modifications to your production line and manage all that, which is not as trivial as modifying a rear panel mold on a CAD screen. Anyway, regardless of what the margins were for BMW, my point is that they only sold 10000 cars worldwide, which is not a lot. If BMW consumers were really after a relatively lightweight agile car (not an all-rounder), it would have most likely sold more. So when people on BMW forums collectively say they want a lighter car (as in the 3000lb/300hp rants of the past), I doubt that most of them would actually buy one if BMW made such a car again. It would either be too expensive or not be an all-rounder...
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12-20-2010, 07:08 PM | #239 | |
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12-20-2010, 11:19 PM | #240 | |
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But the Z4M does have a unique character IMO. It's a bit quirky, a real handful, raw, and challenging (and rewarding) to drive. It's always running on about 5 cups of coffee. And it's a hell of a lot of fun because of those qualities IMO. I think that's what a lot of folks find so much fun--the passion/emotion the car evokes. As much as I enjoy the CS if we could have only one of them it would be the Z4M. It's the one we plan to hang on forever if we can. Love my CS but I can't see having it two years from now....I can't see getting bored with the Z4M. Faster and more capable cars may come and go, but unless something much more fun--to me (and to Skelekitty, since it's her baby I just get to borrow now and then) comes along it's going to be with us a very long time. |
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12-21-2010, 12:24 PM | #242 | |
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In the end it comes down to measuring a given car with it's specific options, but it seems as though the weight difference between the Z4M and Boxster is not as big as the US weights would indicate, based on the more strictly controlled EU weight measurements (which includes 75kg load, but only 90% fuel tank fill), and that it would be difficult to find a Boxster configuration under 3,000 lbs with a full tank of fuel. |
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