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      03-19-2012, 11:03 PM   #1
RecycledTeen
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2003 Z4 Power Top Issues

Figured I might as well start a new thread here instead of clogging up the "DIY" ones for removing the soft top or the motor. Sorry for the length, but trying to be as detailed as possible to not only help people provide a useful response but also for when the next person who has this issue comes across this posting.

Original Issue: Power top motor does not lower or raise the soft top.

1. When fully up and latched, holding the open button would drop windows part way down (if up) and unlatch the top's locks but then nothing. Pushing top down manually was done (no resistance) to get it open / down and in locking position. Holding the open button again would lock it down. Red lights go out.

2. When fully down and locked, holding close button would unlock it but would not move. Pushed the black manual release button and then raise is manually (again, no resistance) to up and closed position. Holding close button again would latch it. Red lights go out.

Suspecting bad motor due to water damage (most common cause), with other functions appearing normal and knowing the trunk shelf floor switch was ok, decided to tackle the R&R motor task. Using Shipkiller's DIY, went like clock work and had it out in under 2 hours.



However, motor and it's case was not in condition I thought it would be in. Bone dry, no signs of corrosion anywhere. The only thing I noticed was that the reservoir looked empty (but was in fact really low). Opted to replace motor.







BTW, the "new" motor does in fact come with pre-stamped numbers for the hydraulic lines but I opted to do a position match swap to keep things in sync. And to my surprise the new motor's pre-drilled holes for mounting the "Bowden cable" bracket were too damn small for the old screws to go in. WTF? Had to find other screws to work (but broke one in process however I got that bracket secured!)

Post motor swap, top installed (not fully, just bolted in), after reconnecting battery tried it again and..... FAIL. Same situation, only "worse".

Current Issue

1. When fully down and unlocked, holding close button does nothing. No need to push the black manual release button because it's not locked. I can raise it manually (without resistance) to up and closed position. Holding close button again would latch it. Red lights go out.

2. When fully up and latched, holding the open button does not drop windows part way down any more (FIXED), the locks unlatch and then nothing. Pushing top down manually I get to about 3/4 then hit resistance. I now need to pull infamous red handle in the trunk that moves a whole 15 feet (give or take 14 feet, 11 and 7/8 inches). Top now goes all the way down. However, holding the open button again does not lock it down any more, AND the red lights do not go out.

At this point, this appears to introduce another potential cause for these tops to fail as first described, where the motor is not the problem. I'm stuck right now with what to try or troubleshoot next. I'm thinking I have to pull it out again to check the "Hall Effect" switches, whatever those are (I thought Hall Effect was a setting on my home stereo), or "bleed" the closed system somehow, or ???

{edit} CAUSE: system was low on fluid due to leak as described below.

Dave

btw - old motor is fine - will put it up for sale.

Last edited by RecycledTeen; 04-08-2012 at 08:11 AM..
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      03-20-2012, 03:54 AM   #2
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Quote:
No need to push the black manual release button because it's not locked.
To me that might indicate the hydraulic release may be open? The red tab in the boot - have you pulled that out?

The other thing I can think of is the switch in the boot if that's broken it might be causing the issue however the button should light up orange when you try to open/close it from memory.

Sorry to hear the roof is giving you problems, I had issues with mine but got it sorted fairly easily - they're a pain in the ass!

Good luck!
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      03-20-2012, 10:19 PM   #3
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It appears to be all about the fluid.

Update: Tonight after work I messed with it some more, cycling switch up / down, manually pushing open / close, numerous times trying to see if it would "engage". And at one point I actually heard the sound of air passing through liquid like the hydraulic fluid was making its way past air in the system. But still, no movement.

I then notice signs of fluid on the floor in front of the right rear tire (clean drains helped point that out). Sure enough, hydraulic fluid. So, the new motor, with a fresh fill of fluid, was able to push it through the system and then it leaks out! That brings me back to the concern with the original motor having so little fluid in it. A closed system could not just have the fluid evaporate, so it had to leak out, right? I now have a general idea from where. And I'm now pretty certain the original motor is fine.

Next step is need to figure that part out; which of the two lines on the right hinge actuator, or the actuator itself (don't think that's even replaceable?). No way to tell off the bat because the whole thing was wet, but Q: how loose are those lines suppose to be anyway? Seems like the driver's side are pretty much the same with no leak.

{edit} Answer is they're ok to move a little (swivel) as that's by design. As noted below, mine are fine, it's the RH actuator that's leaking.

Of course, I need to top off the reservoir first to do replace. To get to all this, the top has to come back out.

Which, after getting it back out allowed me to look for and inspect those Hall Effect senors. Come to find they're both still there but one of them is "broken" off of it's screw mounting point, so I'll need to glue it back down for it to stay.

Was wondering if powering the motor's electrical points will in fact open / close the top while it's on the floor. Seems like it would, according to this chap's experience in replacing these same lines (last post on page 3). Interesting approach on "bleeding it" too. May have to try that.

BTW, the window drop thing was "fixed" by removing and reinstalling Fuse 31 (found that out by chance).

{edit} Ok, figured out the "bowden line" (pull handle below the trunk shelf floor switch) is to emergency release the top's down lock/latch but not sure that device has properly reset itself so i'll deal with that later. Pic for ref:



So that's where things stand, sit, whatever. Get fluid, run the motor/pump, identify leak, replace lines (or skip the first part and just replace them), get it to work on the floor, re-install, and hope for the best. If not fixed, then she's becoming a damn manual soft top car and I'm done!

Last edited by RecycledTeen; 03-27-2012 at 09:21 PM..
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      03-27-2012, 08:50 PM   #4
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Here's latest update:

Got the fluid, topped off motor/pump, cycled power to it off and on, reversing a couple of times, got it to push fluid into the system, confirmed location of leak. It's not the lines as suspected, it's the RH actuator. Must've blown a seal and leaks this stuff right out from it's housing.



Since it's a replaceable part, I'll give it a shot (thankfully with a little help from THIS).

Also, depending on turn around time, may consider a rebuild pair from these guys. Two for the price of one. Anybody have any experience with them?
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      03-30-2012, 08:12 PM   #5
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Did you say the red handle pulls out for 15 feet?! Mine only goes out about an inch. I don't like sounding like an idiot, but I'm an idiot. And I'm serious...
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      04-03-2012, 07:01 PM   #6
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Read the fine print; I tend to be a little sarcastic when dealing with BS like this.

"I now need to pull infamous red handle in the trunk that moves a whole 15 feet (give or take 14 feet, 11 and 7/8 inches)."

So in essence, if your handle moves an actual "inch" that's more than what mine does (somehow that doesn't come out right LOL). And you can have your "idiot" card back; save it for a rainy day. No such thing as a dumb question.

------------------------------

{edit} Final Update: took about a week to get the actuator in, tackled install that same weekday evening and it checked good, using both the old motor and the new one (had plenty of fluid to top off both). Decided to stick with new motor to "refresh" things.

As for that hall sensor, this little thing will ruin your day if not where it should be! (this is the "down" position sensor, not really viewable with the top fully installed; the "up" position sensor is sitting on top).



So now that it's back together, everything works like champ!
Oh, you can bet had my fair share of issues getting it back in and secured and finally working right, but I got it. Only thing left is to do a little adjustment on the down lock / latch since it's "catching" right after it's unlocked and the top starts to go up.

So that's it. For those troubleshooting power top issues like mine, where it appears the motor "sounds" good but is not working, it probably still is and if you can confirm that it's not corroded out like is usually the case, next best thing is to check fluid level. If it appears low, fill it back up and cycle it several times to try to get the top to move. Out of the car, I just alternated applying the 12v + and - leads on the motor. If you have a leak, you'll find it.

Again, many thanks to shipbuilder on the removal write-ups and to others who post advice on fixing this sort of stuff.

Last edited by RecycledTeen; 04-09-2012 at 09:07 PM..
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      04-22-2012, 10:28 AM   #7
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Fwiw.... I'm experiencing issues with my soft top as well (crazy, right?)

I can hear the motor "whirring" but the soft top does not move... Just unlocks and locks...

I notice in ur last post you mention that the motor "sounds" good... How would you describe a good sound from a bad one?
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      05-06-2012, 11:09 AM   #8
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Hmmm, I guess I would describe a "good" sounding motor as one that still "whirs" strong and steady instead of like it's struggling, going in and out when you try to use it, but still nothing moves.

From what I could tell, these motors/pumps are very well built and unless they're corroded to hell (i.e., from water collecting and shorting it out), if they're doing "something" when power is applied (making a "normal" sound as before when working well) they still work and it could very well be something else in the system as I discovered - a leak resulting in being too low on fluid for it to work. Once I filled it back up and cycled it a few times, it was able to pressurize the lines enough to move things and hence, the leaking actuator (bracket) was discovered. My guess is it leaked slowly enough before for the PO to notice it and then the top just "stopped working" one day. When I got it (X number of months/years after that point), there was no evidence of a leak until I tore into it.

Your locking/unlocking still works because the components that indicate the position your top is in is telling those locking actuators to function accordingly (what switch you press). The motor runs in sync at each point, hence the continued "sound" after the latches unlock. As already noted in other threads, only way to tell is to get that thing out of there and inspect it.
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      10-29-2013, 02:14 PM   #9
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Hi Dave, very informative post on the leak in the hinge..I recently bought a 2004 Z4 for $30k here in Pakistan with an automatic top. The top failed 4,5 days back. I could hear the motor whirring very weakly and took it to official BMW service center.. All they did was hook it with the diagnostic tool and said there was no error in the motor.. Took it to an independent workshop, he diagnosed a leak in the Left hinge..Just like yours, its the LEFT one..All of the posts i have read, everyone takes off the roof to access the motor, but this guy took out the passenger seat and got the motor out with the top intact.. The issue is how does one make sure it is the hinge that is leaking and not the hose? He has assured me that its the hinge but i dont want to go through the hassle of importing it from US for $450 only to be informed ohh and the hose is also not functioning or the motor is weak.. Is there is a sureshot way of ascertaining that the hinge is the only culprit? And how come is it for $450? its a bloody hinge!
Another question that i had in my mind is can i operate the roof manually without the fear of it going out of sync?
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      11-16-2013, 04:07 PM   #10
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Hi khalidc
You say that your mechanic removed the LH seat assembly to access the roof motor?
I am planning to place my roof motor during the winter here in Montreal while the car is in storage.

Did you see this first hand?

Mike
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      01-30-2014, 11:09 AM   #11
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Hi Mike, no I wasn't present throughout the entire process. The mechanic, not BMW authorized, removed both seats, removed and checked the motor ( which was in perfect condition) and then checked the left and right roof hinges. The left roof hinge was leaking and had to be replaced. I flew in the part ( cost $465) from ecstuning and had it installed today. Today he just took out the passenger seat and replaced the faulty hinge. Then came the tricky part of roof timing. A couple of hours back he fixed that too but says that I need to replace a sensor for when the roof goes down, it doesn't catch on to the latch and the light keeps blinking. I, for one, do not care anymore asking as the roof keeps going up and down, I don't care about the blinking light on the roof down button. I have taken a pic with the seat out but I don't think it would be of much use to you. I don't know if you need to remove both seats to get to the motor or just the passenger seat but I know for sure it can be done via this route and is probably easier.
Khalid.
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      01-30-2014, 06:18 PM   #12
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Since I wrote the original DIY on the softtop motor, I have privately been keeps an informal tab on softtop issues. Over the last two or three years, more and more of the hydraulic actuators have been developing leaks. On some cars, just one actuator will fail. On others, both will fail.

Since I have been dealing with hydraulics on Submarines for the last 30 years, this really is to be expected after a long period of time and use. The seals will deform or 'roll' and now they need replaced. It is not a design issue.

I actually would like to get a hold of a failed actuator and take it apart to see if they can be rebuilt.
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      01-30-2014, 11:56 PM   #13
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Yes, the DIY you posted inspired me to believe that the motor in my Zs top was faulty and when i found out it was the Actuator/Hinge i was relieved; until i found out that the actuator was actually more expensive then the motor..

My Z4 is a 2004 and had done 55k kms till the failure.. How would the actuator's seals be giving away is beyond me.. I believe it is not that rare an issue anymore.. Is it possible to have the seals repaired? I will give it a try, since here in Pakistan, replacing parts is usually the last resort and there are quite a few hydraulic repair workshops here..

I do have the broken actuator but the shipping cost to US would be a killer..
@Mike, i have attached the pic with the passenger seat out to get to the actuator.. This is the best i could do since i just visited the workshop to check on the progress and wasn't present during the entire process..


Khalid C
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      01-31-2014, 03:25 PM   #14
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I am not saying this way to do the job is wrong but I have a couple of issues with doing it this way.

One is the narrow passage way there is to work and the limited view (aspect) there is.
The other thing is if you replace the motor at this time, it would be VERY hard to make sure the motor housing (sound insulation) completely sealed... Why replace the softtop motor again in three or four years.....
Also, now you have a water intrusion point into the interior of the vehicle IF you do not seal that access properly..

Like I said, this is not the wrong way but there are more risks associated with this process. There is always more than one way to do a job.

But this is all talk.. I am glad you found your real issue and it is being rectified...
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      02-27-2014, 12:50 PM   #15
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Thanks guys for the feedback
I plan on tackling the job this weekend.

I will probably remove the soft top to do the troubleshooting. I would like to ensure there is a path for water to drain as well as sealing the motor housing.

Shipkiller
I agree with you on the hydraulics seal deterioration as I have spent 30 plus years in large commercial aircraft maintenance. Seals wear out over time and if the roof is not exercised for a long period of time (cold weather ops) they may fail when the hydraulics used again.

Mike in Montreal
Come on summer!!!!
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      03-01-2014, 04:33 PM   #16
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Update

Guess I found the problem
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      03-01-2014, 06:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khalidc View Post
Hi Dave, very informative post on the leak in the hinge..I recently bought a 2004 Z4 for $30k here in Pakistan with an automatic top. The top failed 4,5 days back. I could hear the motor whirring very weakly and took it to official BMW service center.. All they did was hook it with the diagnostic tool and said there was no error in the motor.. Took it to an independent workshop, he diagnosed a leak in the Left hinge..Just like yours, its the LEFT one..All of the posts i have read, everyone takes off the roof to access the motor, but this guy took out the passenger seat and got the motor out with the top intact.. The issue is how does one make sure it is the hinge that is leaking and not the hose? He has assured me that its the hinge but i dont want to go through the hassle of importing it from US for $450 only to be informed ohh and the hose is also not functioning or the motor is weak.. Is there is a sureshot way of ascertaining that the hinge is the only culprit? And how come is it for $450? its a bloody hinge!
Another question that i had in my mind is can i operate the roof manually without the fear of it going out of sync?
Hmm, just catching up on this thread....

- One can't make sure of anything unless the whole thing is out. I had no idea my motor was still good, nor did I catch the leaking actuator until I was able to refresh things.
- Price is for a bmw part - need we say more?!
- As for operating manually, I would think sure, wouldn't be any different than operating it with the pressure relieved (for emergency closing).

And yep, looks like you found the problem! Good job.

Oh, and though the unit is known to be self-bleeding, once you install a new one I'd cycle it a few times and recheck level just to make sure; I had to do that with mine because I had been losing it out of the actuator and so the lines needed to be "re-filled" so to speak.
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      03-01-2014, 07:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 19103 View Post
Oh, and though the unit is known to be self-bleeding, once you install a new one I'd cycle it a few times and recheck level just to make sure; I had to do that with mine because I had been losing it out of the actuator and so the lines needed to be "re-filled" so to speak.
You are definitely correct. The unit is self bleeding and the level in the new motor is correct if there is no other issues (leakage), meaning the system has not been compromised with a faulty actuator or hydraulic line. If the system is compromised then you are also correct that after you fix all the issues, then bleed and a top off of the system may be necessary.

To everyone who has to top off, do not overfill. Mark the level in the reservoir before installation, then top off to that mark if needed. The system needs expansion room (returning fluid or thermal expansion) or it will become hydro-locked.
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      03-03-2014, 06:15 AM   #19
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I highly recommend testing the top while it is out before reinstalling. Since I am too cheap to buy a factory service tool, I made a poor mans convertible top stand. Easy to do, allows you to check the fluid level after bleeding, and provides a lot of peace of mind before reinstalling.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ible-Top-stand


Last edited by tribe; 03-04-2014 at 09:10 PM.. Reason: added picture
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      04-07-2014, 09:55 PM   #20
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So, you know that guy Murphy who's got this "Law" thingy? Yeah, well, he shows up just when I put the car up for sale last month. Translation: power top quit working on me. Literally, days before sale! Everything sounded normal but just decided to quit. Fast forward to last week - had to replace the LEFT Hinge (actuator) as it too failed (leaked).

Not for nothing but this is further proof that cars are very temperamental when it comes to changing owners - they know. Somehow, they just know.

Lesson to all: if you have one of these fail on you, change them both! As Shipkiller's sig alludes to, should've taken time (and spent money first round) to change them both when I had the chance!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
I actually would like to get a hold of a failed actuator and take it apart to see if they can be rebuilt.
^ PM me know if you want the failed one - I saved it for you.
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      04-10-2014, 01:44 PM   #21
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looks like my motor has the same issue.. ill have to figure out how to take this apart.. sucks
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      04-10-2014, 08:23 PM   #22
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holy cow, i went out since this afternoon and my top started to work again. I was testing some of the suggestions here and test the microswitch just to be sure it flash a different error, and for some reason, it started to work. i was looking for that red pull string.. may have gotten lucky.. i hope its not broken.
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