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      07-12-2017, 12:37 AM   #45
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and here is the Z4 M Coupe Diff
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      07-12-2017, 12:58 AM   #46
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Sorry for posting these again, its better if both is on the same page so you can see some of the differences.
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      07-12-2017, 07:27 AM   #47
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^interersting to see that the z4m has a larger/different clutchpack in the diff than the m3 and that its much wider.

Did you open up the diff itself to see if there were changes to the actuator mechanism?
There's very little to see through the hole of the m3 diff, it looks like they may have swapped the location of the clutchpack from left to right. That might also account for some of the difference in size btw.

The interesting thing is, that in this thread (sorry, its in romanian), a guy is/was selling an m3 diff (or so he says) but its clearly one that looks like the z4m one:
https://forum.4tuning.ro/641-piese-b...sd-m3-e46.html

So maybe also the m3 was delivered with different diffs?
Maybe they changed the design during their production?
There is a p/n change on the m3 diff in 2002, so thats in the middle of production.
Its still not the same number as the z4 has, but that can also be due to the rear cover or so.
The p/n change from the z4m diff in 2014 is of course not a redesign (as the z4m was out of production) but maybe a new batch made or so to ensure parts availability.
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      07-20-2017, 12:35 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
^interersting to see that the z4m has a larger/different clutchpack in the diff than the m3 and that its much wider.

Did you open up the diff itself to see if there were changes to the actuator mechanism?
There's very little to see through the hole of the m3 diff, it looks like they may have swapped the location of the clutchpack from left to right. That might also account for some of the difference in size btw.
Hi GuidoK, I didn't open the LS carrier unit itself as we cannot get the Clutch packs/friction plates in my Country so We just stripped/rebuilt the diffs on both cars with all new Bearings and Seals.

I'll try and see if i can find some better pics but what i noticed from looking at both, the Z4 uses different looking clutch packs than the M3 and the Z4M has more Clutch packs than the M3.

Also our M3 is a mid 2002 Produced car so could also be the original P/Number before BMW revised it.
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      08-02-2017, 03:03 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
^interersting to see that the z4m has a larger/different clutchpack in the diff than the m3 and that its much wider.

Did you open up the diff itself to see if there were changes to the actuator mechanism?
There's very little to see through the hole of the m3 diff, it looks like they may have swapped the location of the clutchpack from left to right. That might also account for some of the difference in size btw.

The interesting thing is, that in this thread (sorry, its in romanian), a guy is/was selling an m3 diff (or so he says) but its clearly one that looks like the z4m one:
https://forum.4tuning.ro/641-piese-b...sd-m3-e46.html

So maybe also the m3 was delivered with different diffs?
Maybe they changed the design during their production?
There is a p/n change on the m3 diff in 2002, so thats in the middle of production.
Its still not the same number as the z4 has, but that can also be due to the rear cover or so.
The p/n change from the z4m diff in 2014 is of course not a redesign (as the z4m was out of production) but maybe a new batch made or so to ensure parts availability.
You seem quite unsure, speculative even, yet you're 100% certain in the other thread.
What new information have you encountered within the last few weeks that suddenly elevated you to head engineer who knows everything?
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      08-02-2017, 08:30 PM   #50
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Blabbing around in this thread too eh.
Still got a bad taste in your mouth from our last conversation?

What have you done in the last few weeks? Elevated your technical skills from 0,0% to.......0,0%?

Some interesting reading: look up the patents of the company who makes the m diffs. I started reading those and they are very very interestingd. The M diff, both versions, I knew they were made by an oem, not BMW or M gmbh, but I didnt know the OEM also held the intellectual property to those components.
Very interesting because they seem to hold a lot of the patents for both gerotor actuated lsd's and the shear style actuated ones. And they have a lot of different styles for that, they were really reseaching this type of diff in the mid/late 90's, looking at maybe 50 patents or so pump clutch actuation in diff/couplings.

Its a whole bunch of patents regarding pump actuated differentials with different priciples and all filed in roughly the period '97-'01

This for example is a finished one with a disk shear pump style to actuate and published dates from '98 (one of the technical drawings from the patent):

With a single shear channel

This one (issued late 99, published 2001) has a double shear channel:



I'd love to saw the diffs in halves to make some real life crossections. looking at what shear action is used internally on what diff
So yes, I have been reading. Interesting stuff because for lots of small technical details/subfeatures are als proprietary with their own patent. (Probably all very logical to patent lawyers). Thats what I've been up to.

Still following.....Einstein?
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      08-02-2017, 11:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Blabbing around in this thread too eh.
Still got a bad taste in your mouth from our last conversation?

What have you done in the last few weeks? Elevated your technical skills from 0,0% to.......0,0%?

Some interesting reading: look up the patents of the company who makes the m diffs. I started reading those and they are very very interestingd. The M diff, both versions, I knew they were made by an oem, not BMW or M gmbh, but I didnt know the OEM also held the intellectual property to those components.
Very interesting because they seem to hold a lot of the patents for both gerotor actuated lsd's and the shear style actuated ones. And they have a lot of different styles for that, they were really reseaching this type of diff in the mid/late 90's, looking at maybe 50 patents or so pump clutch actuation in diff/couplings.

Its a whole bunch of patents regarding pump actuated differentials with different priciples and all filed in roughly the period '97-'01

This for example is a finished one with a disk shear pump style to actuate and published dates from '98 (one of the technical drawings from the patent):

With a single shear channel

This one (issued late 99, published 2001) has a double shear channel:



I'd love to saw the diffs in halves to make some real life crossections. looking at what shear action is used internally on what diff
So yes, I have been reading. Interesting stuff because for lots of small technical details/subfeatures are als proprietary with their own patent. (Probably all very logical to patent lawyers). Thats what I've been up to.

Still following.....Einstein?
Don't worry, I don't miss you that much.
I had this thread opened from earlier as one of the references and went through it again before closing the tab, only to find irony in the post you made that contradicted what you were claiming in the other discussion.
Not so much a bad taste as it is entertaining to poke at discrepancies to know-it-alls and watch them defend themselves

You make a nice post with good information, but how does this confirm that the superseding PNs in 2002 FEB are indeed of a new design?
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      08-03-2017, 02:50 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
You make a nice post with good information, but how does this confirm that the superseding PNs in 2002 FEB are indeed of a new design?
How does someone offering an E46 m3 LSD for sale which is build in the z4m style not confirm that the superseeding PNs are of new design?

The z4m diff indeed also again has a different bmw PN, but if you look closely on the z4m diff and that e46m3 diff that is for sale, but from what I can see those 2 diffs also have different PN's.



^Does this read:
GKN - V 40695305. 180

BMW 33.14 - 2 282 900 G
(the internal partnumbers from the e46m3 diff for sale from which you claim they're not from an e46m3 diff)

Sure the pic is vague, but I dont ask what it does read. I just ask what it dont read
Would be nice if the maker of the pic could chime in and post a better pic to give complete confirmation.


If not, then what diff is this? not coming off an z4m and as you claim not coming off an e46m3 (contradicting the seller)
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      08-03-2017, 11:54 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
How does someone offering an E46 m3 LSD for sale which is build in the z4m style not confirm that the superseeding PNs are of new design?

The z4m diff indeed also again has a different bmw PN, but if you look closely on the z4m diff and that e46m3 diff that is for sale, but from what I can see those 2 diffs also have different PN's.

^Does this read:
GKN - V 40695305. 180

BMW 33.14 - 2 282 900 G
(the internal partnumbers from the e46m3 diff for sale from which you claim they're not from an e46m3 diff)

Sure the pic is vague, but I dont ask what it does read. I just ask what it dont read
Would be nice if the maker of the pic could chime in and post a better pic to give complete confirmation.


If not, then what diff is this? not coming off an z4m and as you claim not coming off an e46m3 (contradicting the seller)
Your whole premise still assumes that the seller was indeed selling an E46 M3 diff and not a misidentified Z4 M diff.
This is a claim that BOTH of us, during different times, have called into question.
There's still nothing concrete that confirms the superseding PN getting a redesign.
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      08-03-2017, 06:16 PM   #54
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If the numbers on those diffs arent the same, then its confirmed. What do you read in that pic?
Even if they're the same it still could mean redesing in 2002 as there are more pointers that there are than arent. A whole bunch of patent.
And misidentifying, sure possible, but I for one am a person that doesnt have any difficulty seeing if a car is an e46m3 or a z4m. those cars are pretty different in appearance.
I could ask the romanian guy if he's sure that it comes from an m3 if he's still around

"are you sure it was an m3 and not a z4m?"
"are you 100% sure that it didnt have 2 seats?"
"Definately not a roadster? are you sure?"
Would make for a really funny talk
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      08-05-2017, 05:02 AM   #55
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I guess we'll never know 100%, as it still leaves enough room for uncertainty.

But yes, it would make for some awkward conversation
"sooo about your FS thread years ago...I'm trying to win an argument so I need you to confirm some things..."

Funny stuff.
At least you Dutch have a sense of humor after all
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      09-13-2017, 08:05 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
I guess we'll never know 100%, as it still leaves enough room for uncertainty.
This is an interesting thread about someone with a very late e46 m3 (his is from 2006), and he has stock the 'z4m type' LSD in his car.
He has the same question as he apparantly bought a 3:91 ratio upgrade that was based on the older style diffs, and he wonders why his stock diff looks different .
So it DOES seem that indeed the later e46 m3's (with the different partnumber for the diff) do come with the different lsd style, similar as was used in the z4m. So that answers that.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=253453 (use photobucket hotlink addon or such to see pics)
(and that romanian guy also probably knew what he was talking about, which makes sense as people who sell diff cores usually know their stuff, otherwise you just dont come across these things...a layman isnt just going to take a diff/diff core apart. He probably wouldnt know how and have the tools; this is usually the field of experienced mechanics and driveline specialists.)
I think this info is pretty conclusive and confirms what I've been saying...


But what the real life differences are.. who knows.
I suspect that GKN implemented a double sheer actuator instead of a single one; based on the timespan they patented things. But only dissection can confirm this.
And dissection probably means destruction or demolishment in some way as the internals operate on their own oil reservoir.
The main difference that can be seen is that the planetairy gear assembly has been shifted to the side of the crownwheel, and that thus the clutch actuator previously fitted on the crownwheelside now sits on the other side. Thats why its thicker on that side with the newer style diffs. I wonder why GKN changed the design. Was the old one not as good? Is the newer one cheaper to produce?
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      01-15-2018, 08:35 PM   #57
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So on this topic of ratio upgrades, how about an X5 4.8 gear set fitted into the original Z4m diff? I read that it is also a 210mm crown wheel but cant confirm? can anyone else confirm?
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      01-15-2018, 08:40 PM   #58
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I dont think that has a 210mm crownwheel.
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      01-15-2018, 10:54 PM   #59
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Quote:
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I dont think that has a 210mm crownwheel.
Well that's a shame.
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      01-16-2018, 01:20 AM   #60
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BMW also has 215mm diffs and I think thats what they meant (or measured incorrectly).
I doubt they fit the 210 m diff.
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      01-16-2018, 08:15 AM   #61
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Sorry this is what i can see from the pics on my phone when i did my M Coupe diff..
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      09-01-2019, 03:25 AM   #62
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Ill be rebuilding my Z4M diff in a few weeks, ill post some pics and hopefully settle this mystery. Clutch packs bought, just waiting for a good slot at my shop. seems like the oem item is built bu OS giken.
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      09-01-2019, 04:27 AM   #63
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Quote:
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seems like the oem item is built bu OS giken.
No, the OEM z4m/m3 diff comes from GKN.
OS Giken diffs also work on a different priciple.
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      09-03-2019, 01:16 AM   #64
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Cheers.. any idea how many clutch packs we have?
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      09-10-2019, 01:14 PM   #65
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The X5 4.8IS gears will NOT fit on a z4 M differential, I know b/c I've tried. My z4M diff has been whining for years, so I bought an E46 M3 diff and had that rebuilt. I've yet to install it but I'm hoping I won't run into any problems other than having to swap the differential covers.
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      10-28-2020, 06:50 AM   #66
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So they are different.. even to open. The E46 m3 is a breeze compared to the z4m diff.. nearly impossible to open.. have to drill out the locking ball bearing and then get a 4 meter extension bar on a specially made mount in a press.. let's just call that bloody hard...

Anyways, decided after opening the diff to just buy a proper LSD.
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