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      06-11-2014, 02:34 AM   #1
donoman
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Best NorCal Trackday organizations?

Hey y'all, just finished spending all my toy money on my Z4MC and want to destroy some tires. It's been YEARS since I've been to the track, and I don't know who runs a good gig anymore. I used to go with this lady Bonnie who ran "T.E.A.M" which was a lotta Miata's. Then I went with BMWCCA a few times, that was OK.

But anyway, any recommendations on outfits to run with/not to run with?
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      06-11-2014, 02:41 AM   #2
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A few suggestions:

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Golden Gate Lotus Club
NASA

NCRC and GGLC are more "if you want seat time and know what you're doing" outfits. The top two offer instruction, and a much more guided experience.

Not as familiar with NASA but it's good organization as well. Lots of cars IIRC and more competitive crowd.

I'll be at Thunderhill with NCRC this Friday and the 28th and 29th. NCRC for point by (passing with point by anywhere) and Solo (passing on straights only with point by) are still open for Friday; limited group availability for later in the month.
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      06-12-2014, 12:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
A few suggestions:

Trackmasters
Hooked on Driving
NCRC
Golden Gate Lotus Club
NASA

NCRC and GGLC are more "if you want seat time and know what you're doing" outfits. The top two offer instruction, and a much more guided experience.

Not as familiar with NASA but it's good organization as well. Lots of cars IIRC and more competitive crowd.

I'll be at Thunderhill with NCRC this Friday and the 28th and 29th. NCRC for point by (passing with point by anywhere) and Solo (passing on straights only with point by) are still open for Friday; limited group availability for later in the month.
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      06-12-2014, 04:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donoman
Hey y'all, just finished spending all my toy money on my Z4MC and want to destroy some tires. It's been YEARS since I've been to the track, and I don't know who runs a good gig anymore. I used to go with this lady Bonnie who ran "T.E.A.M" which was a lotta Miata's. Then I went with BMWCCA a few times, that was OK.

But anyway, any recommendations on outfits to run with/not to run with?
Most relax, most track time, least amount of traffic passengers allowed and most expensive = Speed District

Organized, fast drivers, somewhat strict and passengers allowed = SpeedVentures

Cheapest, bad/dangerous/#yolo drivers, no passengers allowed and somewhat unorganized and packed = extremespeed

Edit: Nvm I think youre in norcal.
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      06-15-2014, 01:49 AM   #5
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Stranger.
Yeah, need to drop by. Trust me, I really don't have time for these track days. Think it more as therapy and time to recharge. (I'll catch you up.)
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      06-30-2014, 06:59 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
A few suggestions:

Trackmasters
Hooked on Driving
NCRC
Golden Gate Lotus Club
NASA

NCRC and GGLC are more "if you want seat time and know what you're doing" outfits. The top two offer instruction, and a much more guided experience.
...
I have gone with TMR, HOD and GGLC. Finnegan is indeed correct about HOD & TMR having a more "guided" experience - I had an amazing instructor at my first track event with TMR, but HOD really shines in their post-session review sessions and instruction.

GGLC however gave a surprisingly larger amount of time , at a lower cost (just went last week - got 7 30min sessions for $195) - but no instruction at all (I went around and asked for rides and asked people to ride along with me and give me feedback, but had I not done that I wouldn't have had any feedback).
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      06-30-2014, 07:23 PM   #7
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I am biased, by the way. So take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt.

Why would anyone take their LIMITED PRODUCTION E8X M to the track without a coach or instructor in the passenger seat available at all times, is beyond me. Even if you bought it used, you likely spent well in excess of $24,000 to buy it...And if you bought it recently, likely over $30,000.

Spend the big bucks. If you have to take this car to the track, go with the organizations with the best instructors IMO, and don't chance it to bunch of yahoos trying to set their personal lap times on unsafe equipment that cost them LESS than the cost of entry to buy.

And before you go, make sure the event is insurable through some sort of HPDE insurance like Lockton Affinity's HPDE Insurance program. If Lockton won't insure it, I won't attend.
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      06-30-2014, 09:27 PM   #8
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Bmw club offers excellent instruction. They dont run many events though. ggcbmwcca.org
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      07-01-2014, 10:36 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I am biased, by the way. So take what I have to say with a huge grain of salt.

Why would anyone take their LIMITED PRODUCTION E8X M to the track without a coach or instructor in the passenger seat available at all times, is beyond me. Even if you bought it used, you likely spent well in excess of $24,000 to buy it...And if you bought it recently, likely over $30,000.

Spend the big bucks. If you have to take this car to the track, go with the organizations with the best instructors IMO, and don't chance it to bunch of yahoos trying to set their personal lap times on unsafe equipment that cost them LESS than the cost of entry to buy.

And before you go, make sure the event is insurable through some sort of HPDE insurance like Lockton Affinity's HPDE Insurance program. If Lockton won't insure it, I won't attend.
on insurance.

As to "bunch of yahoos" - I'm not sure I met the ones you're talking about (maybe that means I'm one of them? haha). From my experience, most people that I've met are pretty humble (including the instructors). Also - any group you go with will not allow you to go by yourself after spending a few days with an instructor.

I think if you adhere to the principle of "practice slow, learn fast" and don't push yourself too close to your maximum ability - you would be okay without one (after a few days of instruction, of course). Just approach the track with the respect it deserves, and be prepared to go off into the kitty-litter if you fuck up (it won't hurt your car, just your pride). If you're on a track like Sonoma - take it super super slow when there are walls nearby (which is like, everywhere at Sonoma).

As you build up seat time you will get better, as you get better you will move to the "low intermediate" group (most clubs require 10+ track days for that I think). As you get better you can push a little closer to the limits of your ability. If you keep doing track days long enough - you will spin out, but hopefully by that time you know enough to not try to save it - and by that time you would be running in a group that doesn't have any careless yahoos or unsuspecting one-timer tourists.

If developing your skill beyond a few excursions to the local track is what you want - I do agree that our car is far too precious to risk. As far as getting serious it's a silly thing to consider. It is a limited production luxury fun car, not a race car. If one wanted to get into racing - spec miata class is really the way to go, you get a real prepared race car for a fraction of the costs, parts are abundant, races are organized frequently etc.

Having gone both with and without instructors - I have to say that there's value to both. When you have an instructor - the feedback you get is immensely valuable. When you are by yourself - everything is a lot scarier a you feel much more responsibility (there's nobody there to tell you when you're fucking up, you have to monitor it yourself).
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      07-01-2014, 11:26 AM   #10
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I've been instructing for nearly 10 years, and I still treasure every opportunity I get to have another instructor or coach ride with me. Why? There are ALWAYS things I can learn. Someone experienced sitting in the passenger seat can offer you valuable insight and perspective that you can not get from the driver's seat. And if that person in the passenger seat happens to be a faster and better driver than you are, then you WILL become a better driver.

Having been involved with this sport for what feels almost like a lifetime now (although, not nearly as long as some of my fellow instructors. I once served in a tent where the tent leader started racing, not just instructing, RACING, before I was born), I can honestly say the learning curve very quickly plateaus once you go solo. Not saying you won't pick up more speed...But development as a driver slows way down. It takes 2-3 times the amount of seat time to get better by doing it solo vs. having an instructor or coach with you. Even seasoned club racers will sometimes pay for a coach (and that's about $1,000 a day) to help them fine-tune and hone their craft (albeit not in the passenger seat).

I highlighted the 2-3X part, mainly because most of the events with an instructor available do not cost more than 2X the cost of a solo event. So in the end, to get where you need/want to go, you end up paying way more if you decide that after X events you don't need an instructor anymore.

Now, I've always felt that even if you're just out to have some fun, that's okay too...But it's a very expensive sport to just be out having some "fun." If I were to just want to have a fun time I could just go bowling or something. I always felt that if I'm spending this kind of money on consumables and gas and lodging, plus the cost of entry I WANT TO GET BETTER. But that's just me.

I'm not saying NEVER to go to solo events. You're partly right, there are benefits to driving solo. But it's not to scare yourself sh*tless. Solo time, to me, is always best used to hone the last 10th of your skill as the driver. The part that is the hardest to master and can't be taught by a passenger. The MENTAL aspect of driving. Solo seat time should be used to learn self diagnostic, consistency, accuracy, fine-tuning lines...etc, the kind of stuff that you learn after you've mastered the fundamentals of driving fast. I'll attend solo events hosted by friends or organizers I know, so I can lay down some baseline lap time, then alter certain approaches, or practice mental preparation, or test my endurance, or find ways where I can better educate myself thus instruct my students on the fine-art of driving.

To me, a good balance would be, for the first 10 events, make sure you always have an instructor with you. Then for the next 10 events, attend 2 coached/instructed events for every solo event. At that point, if you find yourself getting signed off more often than not, do 1 instructed event for every 2 solo events. If the vast majority of your instructors tell you they have nothing more to teach you, then you're either going with the wrong organization who's instructors suck, or you're probably good to spend most of your time solo'ing with some coach time sprinkled in. Some people learn at an accelerated rate, but I've always found that you WILL plateau at a certain point as a driver, and no one gets away from that next 10-15 events where you could truly benefit from some instruction time.

Again, I'm biased. But it's not like I get paid for what I do, so I don't really have a bone to pick in this. Just my very biased observation when it comes to people choosing DEs based on price rather than sound logical reason, especially with EXPENSIVE hardware.

As for the bunch of yahoos comment...You'd be surprised. Google "Street of Willow cartwheeling" and you'll get a sense of what sort of events and yahoos are out at local tracks. This happens a lot more than you think, especially with this particular organizer.
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      07-01-2014, 12:16 PM   #11
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Googled. Ouch. How did he/she manage that?
I didn't think it happened too often, just by impressions of listening to TMR and HOD organizers speak at driver's meetings

Don't get me wrong - I'm absolutely totally hands down for getting as much instruction as possible. That's why I sought out more experienced guys last thursday with GGLC (also I may be too harsh with "no instruction" about them - there were a few first-time drivers that did indeed get an assigned instructor... I suppose i was just bummed that I didn't get one, because I wanted one :P)

I think that's veering off original topic though . Somewhere else I noticed you were coming up to Laguna Seca sometime soonish - when was that? Or any other events you plan to attend in the bay area? I'd love to meet you in person! My driving needs improvement, I need help!
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      07-01-2014, 01:02 PM   #12
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I was at Laguna on May 31st with BMW CCA Golden Gate. I am contemplating taking a flight up to SacTown, rent a beater, and driving up for THill in November for BMW CCA Golden Gate's event using the full 4.8 mile course. I try to get up there as much as I can to help, but unless it's a weekend at say, Laguna, and I can take advantage by bringing the missus along, it's getting difficult to justify taking 3 days off for 1 day on the track.

As for incidents like the one at Streets of Willow, the first thing I do at any event is survey the paddocks in the morning if it's with a group I haven't ran with (sometimes even with a group I'm familiar with). If all the attendees arrive at the driver's meeting on time, with a well organized driver's meeting going over the basics, if everyone in the paddocks is diligent checking the basic hardware, if the hardware appears to be well maintained (doesn't matter how old or ratty the car looks), if the participants appear to know what they're doing, rather than a bunch of guys sitting around talking about how fast they go through turn 9 before the first run group is even out, then I would feel confident going out there (while keeping my vigilance up, of course).

If the organizers talk mainly about how to attach your transponders, or fail to go over some of the most basic of on-track safety no matter how many times the attendees have heard it, or if the cars in the paddock has more money thrown at it than the car's worth, and all done POORLY like someone's cousin did it in their backyard with adjustable pipe wrenches, if the majority of the cars in the paddock has race seats with 3 point harnesses running on R-Comps, if the participants "warm up" their tires by swerving back and forth IN THE PADDOCKS or do burn-outs...Probably a good sign you should walk away.

As an occasional event organizer myself, I'm not going to point any fingers since I have had my own share of trouble on the organization front. No one is perfect. There are plenty of cases where incidents could have and should have been avoided though with just the right amount of prep and emphasis on safety. I remember one of the private events I put on, the Chief Instructor, the first words out of his mouth in the morning meeting was "Can any of you here tell me which one of the corners on this track is worth $40,000?" That was one of the most uneventful day as far as an event organizer is concerned. NOBODY stepped out of line.

Like I said, the most basic, most simple rule of thumb for me is, if it's not listed on Lockton's HPDE Insurance site as an event they would insure, I wouldn't go. I doubt Lockton would insure any event/organizer where they'd expect multiple incidents that they'd have to pay out.

I will mention, that HOD ran events are pretty high up there in terms of safety and organization. If I can't go to CCA events at a particular track, the next group I'd look at is Driving Concept Incorporated (although, the organizer moved to Texas and now mainly do Competition License Schools only) and HOD.
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      07-01-2014, 06:13 PM   #13
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Unfortunately I am not able to attend HOD any time soon, so had to sign up for this unknown organization called SpeedSF. Will report back and let you know how this goes.

One of the great things about car trackdays vs. motorcycle trackdays is instruction. I guess nowadays you can have radios in your helmet but when I was learning, it was a lot of follow-the-leader and then debrief, but no real-time critiquing.

When I used to ride motorcycles I had enough $$$ and space for a dedicated track bike. What I concluded was that I just didn't have enough $$$ to be injured and out of work, and riding motorcycles is a lot more dangerous (and fun!) than cars. A good rider on a 125cc bike can destroy someone on a 1200cc race replica. The same isn't true if you pit a Spec Miata vs. a Corvette.

Unfortunately I cannot afford/don't have enough space for a track-only car. Insurance is a good alternative, thanks for the suggestion.
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      07-03-2014, 05:04 PM   #14
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Gah... Looks like this trackday organizer SpeedSF isn't on Lockton's list of covered organizers. I made a phone call and left a message to see if I can get some coverage. Will update back.
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      07-27-2014, 04:12 PM   #15
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The SpeedSF track day was somewhat of a clusterf*ck. Maybe it was the track, Laguna Seca, but I've never seen that much carnage in my life at a track day.

-350Z lost a wheel
-S2000 destroyed totaled for sure
-350Z badly damaged probably totaled
-many many cars stuck off road

The tech inspection was "self inspection" meaning you sign a form saying you've checked your car. There were a ton of cars on the track. I think they were saying 30 at a time?

Instruction wasn't really there. They rode with you for one session, drove your car another, and that was pretty much it. There weren't many instructors so some people just had to do Follow-The-Leader. My friends who were first-timers didn't feel very taken-care-of.

We had a good time, avoiding the kamikaze crowd and leaving the day in one piece, but won't be back. I think I'd rather pay a little more to have a nicer day.
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      07-27-2014, 06:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donoman View Post
The SpeedSF track day was somewhat of a clusterf*ck. Maybe it was the track, Laguna Seca, but I've never seen that much carnage in my life at a track day.

-350Z lost a wheel
-S2000 destroyed totaled for sure
-350Z badly damaged probably totaled
-many many cars stuck off road

The tech inspection was "self inspection" meaning you sign a form saying you've checked your car. There were a ton of cars on the track. I think they were saying 30 at a time?

Instruction wasn't really there. They rode with you for one session, drove your car another, and that was pretty much it. There weren't many instructors so some people just had to do Follow-The-Leader. My friends who were first-timers didn't feel very taken-care-of.

We had a good time, avoiding the kamikaze crowd and leaving the day in one piece, but won't be back. I think I'd rather pay a little more to have a nicer day.

Wow, what a mess! That's why I like CFRA (CFRA.net). Private club that is small and no yahoos. I can always bring a guest, and will be doing Sonoma and TH later this year...
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      07-27-2014, 09:08 PM   #17
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I'm not sure where this thread is headed. I have fast idiots and slow idiots with nearly every organization mentioned. Most important, is to be aware of your surroundings, know your driving skill, and a certain amount of speculation of the person behind and in front.

And NO ONE set any track records thinking about the value of their car.

I go for therapy and i have spent far more money on my track car than a beautiful super charged z4m that sits in the garage. If i was scared to drive on the track, i wouldnt go.

Btw, in 8 years i have done 100 percent of the damage to my car. Blown motors and all. Maybe we should be talking about the damage we cause, rather than talking about a few rare yahoos that any decent driver would have seen from a mile away.

Btw, Finnegan can attest to being in the driver seat while an idiot went to pass in a bad spot over driving his corvette. I saw him coming. I let him by and smiled as he went be doing a 360 spinning by. We turned and kept on driving through the corner at near regular speed. This is one of the SAFE, WELL ORGANIZED ORGANIZATIONS mentioned.
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      07-28-2014, 12:25 AM   #18
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Absolutely will attest to that. And Sean did see him coming, we knew he was going to be a problem based on behavior (behind us) earlier that lap. No carnage however, but geez, backwards and spinning. Really stupid, over driving, and BAD track judgement (Sean had pointed him by several times--in Open mind you--and yet he waited for the worst moment).

I don't have much trouble seeing a bad driver. But the bigger question, as Sean noted, is recognizing that the person to watch the most is yourself. That guy can be hard to see, and he may be the biggest issue you'll face on the track )or the road).

Last edited by Finnegan; 07-28-2014 at 12:44 AM..
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      12-02-2014, 11:55 PM   #19
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my suggestion is STAY AWAY FROM SPEEDSF. My friend, who never driven on a track before barely started to autox, came to visit and was able to sneak in and drove in B group free. They didn't check wristband, they didn't check what group you registered for. you could see A group ppl running in B just so they can maximize their seat time, same for the B group ppl in A group trying to get their $'s worth. It was a huge mess.
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