Enjoying the Coupe

[Roadroach]

Originally Posted by pungo

I'll take that bet. From personal experience, there's a really big difference in feel between the electric and hydro.

Haven't driven an M (maybe some day) but in my experience, the si steering feels pretty good - up until pushed past about 9/10ths. Then it gets really spooky (at least on mine) when the fronts are right up against the limit.

Usually a good reminder to NOT do that crap on public roads and let the red mist fade......

[Punisher3.0si]

Originally Posted by pungo

I'll take that bet. From personal experience, there's a really big difference in feel between the electric and hydro. The hydo feels very connected to the road whereas the electric feel vague and not so connected to the road. Having said that, I drove my Z4C w/elec steering for over 5 years and it felt great. I've driven my Z4MC w/ hydro steering for 5 years and it feels great too, but with better road feel.

I do agree, elec is simpler, lighter, leak free, much less expensive to manufacturer, install and improves mpg. I think we've seen the end of hydro steering due to its cost and added complexity.

I said most not everyone

[wdb]

Originally Posted by pungo

I'll take that bet. From personal experience, there's a really big difference in feel between the electric and hydro. The hydo feels very connected to the road whereas the electric feel vague and not so connected to the road. Having said that, I drove my Z4C w/elec steering for over 5 years and it felt great. I've driven my Z4MC w/ hydro steering for 5 years and it feels great too, but with better road feel.

Ditto all of the above. I own one of each and prefer the hydraulic. The electric is not as bad as the early reviews make it out to be though. My big complaint isn't with the the electric steering, it is with the dartiness of the front end over uneven surfaces. The M doesn't do that.

[pungo]

Originally Posted by Punisher3.0si

I said most not everyone

Have you ever driven a Z4 with hydro? The difference in steering feel is dramatic, not subtle, so I would disagree and say most people will notice the difference.

Back on topic. To the OP, do you plan on any upgrades? The aero side skirts and or bumper look really good on silver cars.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I feel the same way 11 years after purchase! Good choice on the coupe!

Still have yours! Cool!

[HTM101]

Originally Posted by pungo

Have you ever driven a Z4 with hydro? The difference in steering feel is dramatic, not subtle, so I would disagree and say most people will notice the difference.

Back on topic. To the OP, do you plan on any upgrades? The aero side skirts and or bumper look really good on silver cars.

Attachment 1790154

Not much at this time. In less than 2 months ownership I've added the wheels, tires, wheel studs, lug nuts, 4 new TPMS units, new storage net on the passenger side of the trans tunnel, new AUX port input module, wipers, oil and filter, and.....I must be forgetting some trivial items. Seems the sport antenna is a good aesthetic change to make now.

At this time I enjoy the overall stock appearance, even the interior. I feel the Business Radio is lacking in features, yet I don't want to spoil the clean factory appearance of the dash. Eventually the urge to change some things may kick in. At the end of this year I'll probably change rotors and pads as I'm feeling a minor bit of pulsation under slightly more than normal braking.

Its nice to have a civilized sports car with a roof, heat, and A/C that I can hop in at a moments notice and head out for a chill. Quite the contrast to my other sports car that requires a check-list of items to ensure readiness and compatibility with the weather. However, the Cobra still raises the hackles on my neck each time I start it and stimulates a bunch of other emotions.

David

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by HTM101

We're in Bel Air.

Very nice! Congratulations!

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by HTM101

That's a surprisingly low number for a car with styling I consider to be appealing. The little reading I've done suggests the coupe wasn't selling in large numbers during the 2006-2008 build period.

I'm throwing this out to all current or past owners: what is your opinion regarding the low sales numbers?

David

BMW was playing in Porsche's backyard. That's a difficult spot to play in. The car fits the same type of market (second car, not a family hauler) as the 911 and more importantly the Cayman. The Cayman was close to the same price point, and, it was a "Porsche"*. That's strike one. Strike two was the recession, which didn't help matters. Strike three is that enthusiasts after a driving experience that's connected to the road, not a luxobarge or do-everything fast but numb hauler were simply starting to disappear (also secondary point to economics). That trend has continued. Look at what sells these days.

*The Cayman Gen I we now know was a disaster, but there was caché at the same price point or close to it. (I owned a Gen I Cayman before the Z. The Cayman is very competent, but boring, relatively, and there were too many issues.) But no one knew about the issues back then.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Punisher3.0si

Im glad the 3.0si has electric power steering. Honestly I can't stand hydraulic. This is one less system to leak plus it's more efficient and completely silent. I realize it's cool to say hydraulic is better but I would be willing to bet that most people couldn't tell a difference in everyday driving.

When I started my search for a 3.0si Coupe I did not realize they had EPS. But the EPS in the Coupe powers the column, not the rack, so IMO it is a combination of a non-power rack (gives great feel) with a power assist at the steering wheel, which is the way I'd design it. My E90 and Z3 are hydro and the Z4 is column-EPS, I love the steering of all three. Of the several F3X EPS I have driven, none hold a candle to the Z4 EPS. It was well done, and if I am correct, BMW's first foray into EPS?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Very nice! Congratulations!

Best angle to enjoy Bangle's work.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by pungo

I'll take that bet. From personal experience, there's a really big difference in feel between the electric and hydro. The hydo feels very connected to the road whereas the electric feel vague and not so connected to the road. Having said that, I drove my Z4C w/elec steering for over 5 years and it felt great. I've driven my Z4MC w/ hydro steering for 5 years and it feels great too, but with better road feel.

I do agree, elec is simpler, lighter, leak free, much less expensive to manufacturer, install and improves mpg. I think we've seen the end of hydro steering due to its cost and added complexity.

I'm not going to argue the point since I've never driven the hydro M Coupe, but it could be that the steering feel of the M is better feeling because the suspension is tuned differently and the N52 sitting over the front axle makes the front end feel different than the S54 in the M? I think there are more factors at play than just the EPS vs. hydro part differences.

[Huz-Z]

When comparing the N52 3.0 si to the S54 in the Z4M, it should be noted that even if both cars had the same hydraulic steering, the si would feel different owing to its lighter magnesium block N52 engine.

Having said that, my E70 X5 has hydraulic steering and my Z4 3.0 si has electric steering and yes, I can notice the difference between the two. For track use, I can understand why M drivers love their hydraulic steering. But do I give a rats ass when I park the X5 and take the Z4 out for a nice top down spin around town or out over the highway on a sunny day? Nope.

[pungo]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm not going to argue the point since I've never driven the hydro M Coupe

Exactly

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by pungo

Exactly

So are you coming across as an Elitist M dick, or willing to have a conversation about it? Just because you own an M car with hydraulic steering (I have 3 cars with hydraulic steering) doesn't mean you can drive and appreciate the steering feel. The car (and BMW) with the best steering feel I ever drove was a 1977 BMW 320i. Hands down.

[pungo]

Originally Posted by pungo

Having said that, I drove my Z4C w/elec steering for over 5 years and it felt great.

Did you not read what I said in my earlier post here!

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So are you coming across as an Elitist M dick, or willing to have a conversation about it? Just because you own an M car with hydraulic steering (I have 3 cars with hydraulic steering) doesn't mean you can drive and appreciate the steering feel. The car (and BMW) with the best steering feel I ever drove was a 1977 BMW 320i. Hands down.

I have driven both a Z4 M and non M for over 5 years and simple gave my impression with real world use You admit that have never driven a Z4 M yet said most people would not be able to tell the difference between hydro and elec.

I really don't appreciate you calling me names, so please do not reference me in any further posts unless you have something positive to say.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by pungo

Did you not read what I said in my earlier post here!



I have driven both a Z4 M and non M for over 5 years and simple gave my impression with real world use You admit that have never driven a Z4 M yet said most people would not be able to tell the difference between hydro and elec.

I really don't appreciate you calling me names, so please do not reference me in any further posts unless you have something positive to say.

I said no such thing. I said components and suspension design other than the hydro and EPS could influence the steering feel differences between the two cars. Have a great day.

[wspohn]

Originally Posted by pungo

Have you ever driven a Z4 with hydro? The difference in steering feel is dramatic, not subtle, so I would disagree and say most people will notice the difference.

Agree. The hydraulic is far better in terms of feel. Wish they had come with a manual rack, but tires are just too wide for many people with manual these days.

[Huz-Z]

It’s not just the rack that contributes to the difference. Even if you installed a hydraulic steering rack on a 3.0si, it would not feel exactly the same as a Z4M because the N52 engine in the si is not as heavy as the engine in the M.

[wdb]

Steering rack aside, I can tell the difference between the cast iron S54 lump and the 200 lb lighter magnesium N52. The front end of my 3.0si coupe is ridiculously responsive, I LOVE it. The M coupe is nice too, but not like that.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by wdb

Steering rack aside, I can tell the difference between the cast iron S54 lump and the 200 lb lighter magnesium N52. The front end of my 3.0si coupe is ridiculously responsive, I LOVE it. The M coupe is nice too, but not like that.

I really think both steering approaches for the Z4 have something unique going for them. The "better" argument is always about picking one or the other only. I don't see it that way. The are pros/cons to each flavor. Neither car is "better". Simply put weight in front is a pretty big factor, and EPS well executed can be damn good.

The EPS in the 991.1 GT3 is the best steering I've ever felt, that's comparing to E36/46/92 M3 and Z3/4M. All of which I've driven extensively over thousands of miles (991.1 included). I haven't had the pleasure of driving a Z4 EPS but if it's direct, which the descriptions indicate, and before BMW numbed EPS for the masses*, I'll bet it's damn good. Again, - 200 lbs.

* I'll totally agree that most modern EPS like most Porsche or BMWs which follow the "isolate and filter everything out" paradigm are awful. But that's a design decision not an intrinsic characteristic. I don't think the filter and dumb down EPS plan was in play in the Z4 generation we have. BMW has made the current electric steering so numb on purpose. The mass market wants isolation and no feedback. Why? If the wheel provides feedback on grooves pulling the tires left/right, or on loss of traction, it scares people. And then most people then think the vehicle feels "unsafe". Isolation gives a feeling of security and invulnerability to the general public IMO.

There was a piece recently on steering by an engineer at BMW where he talked about filtering all feedback out. "If the wheel is set straight and the road pulls the tire we just keep it straight and filter that 'noise' out of what's passed to the driver. The car knows where you want it to go, we just make it simple to go there. The driver doesn't need to know what's happening they just want the car to go where they want it to go."

This is exactly what I do not want. That's what probably all of us here don't want. In fact, I'm pretty sure M or no M we probably agree 100% on this. But that feedback on road, what the tires are doing, that feels "unsafe" to the SUV mass market isolation crowd. Or at least that's my developing theory.

[SaltyNC]

I read a similar article (maybe the same one) where the BMW engineer said they could make EPS feel any way they wanted through programming, and that if they wanted to make it feel like hydraulic they could. I sure wish they would offer a button like a sport button for the steering programming. The steering on our 2015 MINI tightens up in sport mode, but not as much as my first MINI.

It seems like it all boils down to two groups these days. Those who like the BMW brand for how the cars drive and those who like the BMW brand for the dang label but want a floatmobile, and the latter crowd is winning out.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by SaltyNC

I read a similar article (maybe the same one) where the BMW engineer said they could make EPS feel any way they wanted through programming, and that if they wanted to make it feel like hydraulic they could. I sure wish they would offer a button like a sport button for the steering programming. The steering on our 2015 MINI tightens up in sport mode, but not as much as my first MINI.

It seems like it all boils down to two groups these days. Those who like the BMW brand for how the cars drive and those who like the BMW brand for the dang label but want a floatmobile, and the latter crowd is winning out.

I have an SUV too - E70 X5 and its got hydraulic steering. When I had it at the dealer to get the snow tires installed a few months back, the young fella driving me to work in their courtesy car ( a 2017 X5) and the service advisor too told me that the electric steering in that car simply sucked and the steering in my X5 was way better.