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      02-02-2013, 06:42 PM   #23
G80indy
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I have looked into TWS in-depth with one of its design engineers and he himself states it is closer to a 0w-40.
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      02-02-2013, 07:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
you can't possibly be suggesting that using a different 10w-60 oil (other than TWS; actually a changing spec of TWS) is beyond what the engineers designed for...
especially when the viscosity (Redline for example) is a bit higher.
I have looked into TWS in-depth with one of its design engineers and he himself states it is closer to a 0w-40.
it's tasty Kool-Aid.
but Kool-Aid none the less.
I think you've answered your own question. BMW have never approved anything other than TWS as a suitable 10w60 oil for the S54. It IS thin for a 10w60.

Please provide all the info you have from your in-depth discussions with the S54 design engineer, as this will be valuable information for the BMW community, especially any amount of quantative data you can lay your hands on.

I may change to another oil myself, but I'm waiting for others to experiment for a couple of years before I make my decision.

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      02-02-2013, 07:59 PM   #25
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over at BITOG

from PM with me over at BITOG, a while ago now!
(courtesy of Mr. Doug Hillary)

"Hi,
as requested and as sent off to others:

STARTS
Hi,
I first used Castrol's R 15w-50 (castor based) great smell - in 1978

In 1980 I commenced a Senior Technical position with a major International Company whereby I could try new technologies and the like

We (Castrol & I), first decided to test the product in late 1980 a wide range of engines;

Diesel
4cyl IL Isuzu, Kubota, Benz
3cyl IL Kubota

Petrol
6cyl IL Nissan
4cyl IL Mitsubishi
2cyl Horizontal (air coooled)

Castrol reformulated the "R" to a non castor lubricant early in the test programme

The tests involved stationary and mobile engines in ambient temps ranging from -6C to 50C
Regular UOAs were done to monitor the lubricant's condition and some engine tear downs were undetaken. The tests lasted until 1985 and covered hundres of thousand of hours of use

A number of minor formulation tweaks took place which I was a part of of course

Later (in 1986) an employee of mine (an Automotive Engineer) from IH - Mercedes Benz was employed with my help by Castrol as a Lubricant Engineer. This rekindled the testing regime again in 1989 but this time it was with HDEOs. He remains with Castrol today as a Senior Lubricant Engineer and we are still excellent friends of course

I continued to use Castrol R 10w-60 (from 1980) until 1999 in a variety of engine families and random UOAs were carried out

The lubricant 10w-60 is very durable and during the tests in the early 1980s were were able to get up to 4000hrs service before OC. We averaged about 2500hrs. We averaged 80km/h (50 mph) here in this test regime"

Regards
Doug Hillary

ENDS
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Regards
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06/18/08 12:00 AM Re: Castrol 10w-60
Doug Hillary

Hi,
I cannot provide more data than you probably already have

But this might help you

1 - ALPINA worked on its formulation with Castrol/BMW
2 - It suits DI engines due to its viscosity namely HTHS @ 5.4cP
3 - It has an excellent Pour Point (-42C) which is much better than some lighter viscosity lubricants
4 - It was progressively developed from 1997 as a low chlorine/minimised phosphorous lubricant

Its part ester/part PAO base has been constructed over a period of 30 years on an excellent development path

In its early life is was used by Sauber-Mercedes winning at LeMans and in Formula 1 engines (Ford-Cosworth). It was used at one point by Porsche in some race engines. It was also used here in the V8Supercars ZF six speed gearboxes with great success

It is a bit like a heavy weight version of M1 0W-40 or Delvac 1 5W-40 in its formulation
END
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TWS is good stuff, no doubt. Just prefer the Redline... There are more posts....
It's basically this:

As of 11-'13, after acquiring the S65 in the e92 M3, I may be changing my tune in favor of the slightly thinner TWS.
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      02-02-2013, 08:26 PM   #26
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Man I love this thread, for every 5 minutes I spend reading other posts I'm searching the internet for another 30 minutes to try to verify info and learn more in depth about oil properties.

What I gather from all this is that maybe BMW wants a slightly thinner oil to improve flow through bearings. This will result in a thinner film of protection for the bearings but at a slightly higher flow. There is not a dramatic difference in 100C viscosity between the two Castrol oils (about 1.1%).

If I decide to switch, I think I would go with redline. It won't change viscosity at higher temps as much as TWS because Redline has a higher VI. It has a higher HTHS number meaning it will offer a slightly thicker film to protect bearings better.
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      02-03-2013, 02:06 PM   #27
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(courtesy of Shipkiller)
http://www.shipkiller.com/Z4M_Specific_Oil_Page.html

the specs for these oils are in a spreadsheet/ NICE WORK!

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130&pcid=21
API Service Class SM/SL/SG/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil) 10W60
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 25.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 173
Viscosity Index 182
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 65@-25
Pour Point, °C -45
Pour Point, °F -49
Flash Point, °C 257
Flash Point, °F 495
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), % 6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741 6.7
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      11-06-2013, 10:06 AM   #28
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Edge Professional TWS 10w-60

Density @ 15 ̊ C, Relative g/ml 0.853
Viscosity, Kinematic 100 C mm²/s 22.7
Viscosity, CCS -25 ̊ C (10W) mPa.s (cP) 4879
Viscosity, Kinematic 40 ̊ C mm²/s 160
Viscosity Index 173
Pour Point °C -39
Flash Point PMCC °C >200
Ash, Sulphated % wt 1.29
not sure what the HTHS is.... anyone?
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      11-06-2013, 10:28 AM   #29
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bavarian specialties in Philadelphia/King of Prussia runs the LubroMoly 10-60 in all their race cars. just another data point.

I would be temped to try RedLine before LubroMoly. Larger company, less chance of quality variations due to better developed manufacturing processes.
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      12-19-2013, 10:27 PM   #30
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Here's one more data point, in case anyone is interested

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926080
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      12-20-2013, 07:52 AM   #31
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Thanks for posting this, XMetal. And thanks to Indy, for taking the time, effort and expense!
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      11-15-2014, 09:36 AM   #32
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Now that Shell is in bed with BMW, and may provide BMW a dedicated GTL 10w-60 oil, (all speculation), there will likely be gnashing of teeth that boutique TWS is no longer the exclusive fluid for M cars.
I find it interesting the TWS formula changed, with pour point less extreme. Wasn't it -51F ? Perhaps less ester base?
Also that Redline has changed over the last couple years from 6.7 to 5.8 HTHS. That is interesting--- less extreme for a 10w-60.
It's relevant, since we do not know how exceptional for M engines that Shell product will turn out to be, at least in view of the peanut gallery (forums)
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