alignment help?

[claysones]

Hi all, I just bought an 07 z4 coupe non-m last week and I've loved driving it the past 1,000 miles. Ive owned several BMW's and my last car was a track prepped e30 that i drove everyday on the street. After buying my z4 I've noticed it follows cambers and creases in the road pretty severely. For example if I'm driving over rough pavement that has been poured in different sections the car darts, follows, and pulls with every crease it runs over. Im on pretty clapped out pirellis and i understand a set of new tires should help. Im also going to get an alignment done. Do you guys have tips/suggestions for alignment settings to solve this problem? I also understand "in spec" is a pretty broad region. Please help! (keep in mind massive negative camber doesn't play to well with my college kid budget of conserving tires)
Thanks!

[claysones]

anyone?

[seank]

16th toe in front and rear should help. The settings will be dependent on what you want to do with the car. As you mentioned, some tires are worse than others. Camber should have no affect on your issue.

[unluky]

Do you have run flat tires on? Mine did when I bought it and it was like driving on marbles on uneven roads. Installed new tires and it was like a whole new car. Amazing difference. Search tramlining for more stories.

[angelr]

What part of fl are you in? I can recommend a good alignment/chassis specialist if you're near central fl. Has done all my cars for years, street or track.

[Finnegan]

Is this a ///M coupe or 3.0?

A bit of front toe-in should help, as Sean noted, but I wouldn't go too high on that.

Tires make a bid difference as well, I and if they're run-flat that makes it even worse.

Here's a link to a resource on alignment by Z model. If yours is an ///M I can be a lot more specific with recommendations.

[asirvr4]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Is this a ///M coupe or 3.0?

A bit of front toe-in should help, as Sean noted, but I wouldn't go too high on that.

Tires make a bid difference as well, I and if they're run-flat that makes it even worse.

Here's a link to a resource on alignment by Z model. If yours is an ///M I can be a lot more specific with recommendations.

mine is ///M
can you help with alignment? Mostly street use and occasionally track.
note i got KW V3's installed. would want max camber (even sides), but how about the toe, pls?

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by asirvr4

mine is ///M
can you help with alignment? Mostly street use and occasionally track.
note i got KW V3's installed. would want max camber (even sides), but how about the toe, pls?

I'll give you two answers:

"Max" camber for track use - With camber plates: -2.5 to - 3.0 front zero toe-in; -2.0 rear with - 1/4" total toe in* . Obviously this will have more wear, especially front.

Compromise street set-up - Balance of good tire wear, good performance would be -1.5 to -1.7 front 1/16th" total toe-in; -1.7 rear with 1/4" total toe in*. (The rear settings are in the stock range, the front have more camber, stock is more like -1.0 IIRC.) The more moderate camber settings in front will cause less tramlining than the more max track setting. (I've run both.) Before someone says "tire wear" with -1.7 up front, with a bit of track use, is a good balance.

* I'm using Kgolf's rear toe settings (took his recommendation, great stuff). The car is better with a bit more rear toe-in, able to put power down, settles the car when rolling on throttle at the apex. Well worth the bit of extra tire wear.

If you're running fixed plates, it may be hard to get "enough" negative camber up front (especially if you want the track settings), front negative camber is easy to achieve using the Turner camber washer kit. (Stock can only get to -1.0 or a bit more with the "pins"--small hex head bolts--removed.). See this thread for everything you'd ever need to know. 2 washers will easily get you to -2.0, and allow adjustment between ~-1.7 - ~-2.6 by moving the struts in/out.

Alignment is always a compromise between tire wear and max grip. Street--for me--is the compromise I'm comfortable with expressed in the settings above. YMMD. Driving inputs are the most important factor though--alignment helps but the driver is key not the settings.

Hope that helps.

[Shipkiller]

I found for the front camber, that somewhere around -2.7 seems to be the tipping point to where the wear on the front tires is excessive for a street driving car, with the occasional track day. Each chassis will be a little different.

I was running -3.0 and corded the inner inch of a perfectly good PSS's. I have backed the front camber down to -2.5 and the wear is almost uniform but for me a good compromise. I run zero toe in the front.

Just remember, if you run camber plates and adjust the camber more negative, then the toe is going to move more positive...

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Shipkiller

I found for the front camber, that somewhere around -2.7 seems to be the tipping point to where the wear on the front tires is excessive for a street driving car, with the occasional track day. Each chassis will be a little different.

I was running -3.0 and corded the inner inch of a perfectly good PSS's. I have backed the front camber down to -2.5 and the wear is almost uniform but for me a good compromise. I run zero toe in the front.

Just remember, if you run camber plates and adjust the camber more negative, then the toe is going to move more positive...

Good to know Ship! I like the handling characteristics in the -2.5 front range. Krissi has had hers at -2.0 zero toe forever, and with 20K miles on the Star Specs (before switching to PSSs, with tread left), very even wear with a few track days thrown in.

I think the key you touched on is zero toe in to keep wear minimal at those more aggressive camber settings. With a bit of toe-in, I think the tipping point moves down into the under -2.0 region. Just a reasoned suspicion, I haven't tested it.

[claysones]

mines a non-m 3.0si coupe on stock sport package rims and run down pirelli run flats. Purchased some nitto motivo's due to a good price and a great UTQG number so the life of the tire should help out my low budget.

They're getting mounted and balanced on monday and I'm taking it to either DBMW in jacksonville florida or Tom Bush BMW which is in jacksonville as well.

Should I tell them to just keep it at stock alignment setting or do you guys think I should request a bit of toe in.

Ideally I'm hoping a non-runflat will fix the problem and I can maintain the factory setup (At least until I can save some money and start on suspension and rim mods)

[Aries326]

Originally Posted by claysones

mines a non-m 3.0si coupe on stock sport package rims and run down pirelli run flats. Purchased some nitto motivo's due to a good price and a great UTQG number so the life of the tire should help out my low budget.

They're getting mounted and balanced on monday and I'm taking it to either DBMW in jacksonville florida or Tom Bush BMW which is in jacksonville as well.

Should I tell them to just keep it at stock alignment setting or do you guys think I should request a bit of toe in.

Ideally I'm hoping a non-runflat will fix the problem and I can maintain the factory setup (At least until I can save some money and start on suspension and rim mods)

What did you end up going with? I'm going to start tracking my Z. I'll start with a proper alignment before changing the coilovers.

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by Aries326

What did you end up going with? I'm going to start tracking my Z. I'll start with a proper alignment before changing the coilovers.

Unless, you've installed camber plates, about -1.4 to -1.5 degrees negative camber is the max you can get in the front after pulling the factory positioning pins. If you're still stock, pull the pins, max out the neg camber in the front, and set toe at zero. You'll still have a noticeable improvement in handling without any additional contribution to tire wear.
All this being said, Claysones never posted back but I'll be surprised if the dealer set him up for anything other than factory specs. Everyone I know has had to find a good indy shop for custom spec alignments.

[Aries326]

Originally Posted by dc_wright

Unless, you've installed camber plates, about -1.4 to -1.5 degrees negative camber is the max you can get in the front after pulling the factory positioning pins. If you're still stock, pull the pins, max out the neg camber in the front, and set toe at zero. You'll still have a noticeable improvement in handling without any additional contribution to tire wear.
All this being said, Claysones never posted back but I'll be surprised if the dealer set him up for anything other than factory specs. Everyone I know has had to find a good indy shop for custom spec alignments.

Thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll have to get camber plates. I haven't had these H&R coilovers long so I don't think I want to get rid of them just yet. Can we get stiffer springs for them?

I just ran my car for the first time on a track. We were allowed 3 laps on Charlotte Speedway for $25. Supposedly , you're not allowed to go over 70 or pass but we were going 100-130 easily. It was awesome. But I have to admit, it was borderline reckless.

I'm finding out about more and more events in the area that'll let me track my roadster so it is definitely something I want to do for next year.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by Aries326

Thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll have to get camber plates. I haven't had these H&R coilovers long so I don't think I want to get rid of them just yet. Can we get stiffer springs for them?

I just ran my car for the first time on a track. We were allowed 3 laps on Charlotte Speedway for $25. Supposedly , you're not allowed to go over 70 or pass but we were going 100-130 easily. It was awesome. But I have to admit, it was borderline reckless.

I'm finding out about more and more events in the area that'll let me track my roadster so it is definitely something I want to do for next year.

Getting on track at speeds above 'parade laps' without instructions is definitely reckless. Check out your local Porsche Club or NASA as they allow convertibles. And buy a decent SA 2010 helmet, many of the Bell helmets are 15% off with most online race shops.

You might be able to swap springs but if the damper isn't meant for those rates, it's not worth it. I don't recall if the H&R coilovers use the stock spring perch but if so you should try to find a set of RE fixed camber plates. NOt sure if they sell anymore but you might be able to find a set from a 3rd party distributor. I was able to get -1.8* with fixed plates + pins removed on stock suspension. Another worthwhile mod is switching over to Z4M or ZHP FCAB as you'll gain more caster. I would only do the latter if you're due for replacement, may as well get it done all at once and only pay for 1 alignment.

Make sure to get a brake flush too before your next event.

[Aries326]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Getting on track at speeds above 'parade laps' without instructions is definitely reckless. Check out your local Porsche Club or NASA as they allow convertibles. And buy a decent SA 2010 helmet, many of the Bell helmets are 15% off with most online race shops.

You might be able to swap springs but if the damper isn't meant for those rates, it's not worth it. I don't recall if the H&R coilovers use the stock spring perch but if so you should try to find a set of RE fixed camber plates. NOt sure if they sell anymore but you might be able to find a set from a 3rd party distributor. I was able to get -1.8* with fixed plates + pins removed on stock suspension. Another worthwhile mod is switching over to Z4M or ZHP FCAB as you'll gain more caster. I would only do the latter if you're due for replacement, may as well get it done all at once and only pay for 1 alignment.

Make sure to get a brake flush too before your next event.

The only instruction we got was, don't go over 70, don't pass, read the disclaimers and sign on the dotted line.

I thought we'd get some instruction when we got to the track. We just got on the track, lined up and went. After the first turn, all hell broke lose.

People started passing like crazy. Passing on the inside, outside, on the turns from the top... It was nuts. I was probably doing about 100 on one of the turns, middle of the bank, and the M5 plus two Camaros passed me from the top.

After I got passed once, I started passing as well. I didn't want to be in the back of other slow drivers and potentially get into a wreck.

Thank for the advice! I'll go look for those parts!

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by Aries326

The only instruction we got was, don't go over 70, don't pass, read the disclaimers and sign on the dotted line.

I thought we'd get some instruction when we got to the track. We just got on the track, lined up and went. After the first turn, all hell broke lose.

People started passing like crazy. Passing on the inside, outside, on the turns from the top... It was nuts. I was probably doing about 100 on one of the turns, middle of the bank, and the M5 plus two Camaros passed me from the top.

After I got passed once, I started passing as well. I didn't want to be in the back of other slow drivers and potentially get into a wreck.

Thank for the advice! I'll go look for those parts!

Sounds like the worst 'organized' track event. Would never take any of my cars to that event even if it were free lol.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Sounds like the worst 'organized' track event. Would never take any of my cars to that event even if it were free lol.

^ I couldn't agree more!

[Aries326]

To top it off, I really thought people were going to follow the rules so I left my top down. Going over 100 with the top down and on a 30 degree bank with a loud Camaro next to you was pretty scary.

What's scary is there was an SUV, pick up truck and a minivan thrown into the mix. Those guys were driving high on the banks! Needless to say, I passed them to make sure I wasn't involved in case they got into a wreck.

I don't think I've ever felt that much fear and excitement rolled into one while driving my car. #whiteknuckles

I have much more respect for real race car drivers that do those ovals at 200 mph with only inches separating them.

Anyway, what's the widest tires can you run on the Z4 without rubbing? Looks like I'll be adding camber so will 235 front and 265 rear work?

[Steeler]

Running 235/40 and 265/35 on 8.5 and 9 plus 40 front and back within stock alignment specs
Could use 10mm spacers in front and 6 in back

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by Aries326

To top it off, I really thought people were going to follow the rules so I left my top down. Going over 100 with the top down and on a 30 degree bank with a loud Camaro next to you was pretty scary.

What's scary is there was an SUV, pick up truck and a minivan thrown into the mix. Those guys were driving high on the banks! Needless to say, I passed them to make sure I wasn't involved in case they got into a wreck.

I don't think I've ever felt that much fear and excitement rolled into one while driving my car. #whiteknuckles

I have much more respect for real race car drivers that do those ovals at 200 mph with only inches separating them.

Anyway, what's the widest tires can you run on the Z4 without rubbing? Looks like I'll be adding camber so will 235 front and 265 rear work?

I'm running 255/35 in the front and 275/35 in the rear on the same Style 108 wheels you've got (factory M-Sport suspension). No rubbing or other issues at all.

That was insane that they let people do that on the track! I would have pulled off the track and into the paddock the instant the other idiots starting passing. The people running that event are morons or they have no liability statutes in NC.

[Aries326]

Wow, you got those to fit on your car? What's your set up?

They did have us sign a waiver so I guess that absolves them from whatever wrecks may occur.