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      07-01-2013, 11:51 AM   #1
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E46 M3 vs. Z4MC for the track

I've been using my M3 for a few years doing HPDEs, but I'm thinking about switching to the Z4M as I move on.

There are a few factors that are driving me to think about switching (head room, weight, great steering wheel, potential resale value).

Does anyone have experience with both of these cars at the track? Are there any big pros/cons for either car that I should know about?

Will I be able to fit my 265/35/18 RS3s under the front of the Z4M?
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      07-01-2013, 12:15 PM   #2
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Does anyone have experience with both of these cars at the track? Are there any big pros/cons for either car that I should know about?
I've driven both and my assessment is that the M3 provides a "simpler" and easier-to-approach on-track experience. The Z4M is a more "complex" and, thus, more exciting experience.

The Z4M obviously has the same power dynamics. It weights a bit less, sure, but you don't really notice that. What you do notice is the shorter wheelbase... the car rotates very easily and the seating position exaggerates the sensation. You can get the car into turns with minimal effort and kick the back out around the apex without any drama. Because you're sitting on the rear axle, I feel you have more awareness of the car's slip angle. It's a more "twitchy" experience but, like I've said, figure it out and you'll be rewarded. Better steering rack/ratio... amazing steering wheel... the Z4M has a lot going for it!

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Will I be able to fit my 265/35/18 RS3s under the front of the Z4M?
Depending on negative camber specs, absolutely. Stock... no way.

Now go buy my car... http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807212

...wait a second, was it you I was talking to at the TrackDaze event?!
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      07-01-2013, 12:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCz04Bimmer View Post
I've driven both and my assessment is that the M3 provides a "simpler" and easier-to-approach on-track experience. The Z4M is a more "complex" and, thus, more exciting experience.

The Z4M obviously has the same power dynamics. It weights a bit less, sure, but you don't really notice that. What you do notice is the shorter wheelbase... the car rotates very easily and the seating position exaggerates the sensation. You can get the car into turns with minimal effort and kick the back out around the apex without any drama. Because you're sitting on the rear axle, I feel you have more awareness of the car's slip angle. It's a more "twitchy" experience but, like I've said, figure it out and you'll be rewarded. Better steering rack/ratio... amazing steering wheel... the Z4M has a lot going for it!



Depending on negative camber specs, absolutely. Stock... no way.

Now go buy my car... http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807212

...wait a second, was it you I was talking to at the TrackDaze event?!
I've seen your FS post and the car looks awesome. I guess I didn't state it in this thread, but I already have both cars. Currently the e46 spends most of the time in the garage and my wife DDs the Z.

Nope, wasn't me at the TrackDaze event. Thanks for the feedback, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.
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      07-01-2013, 12:59 PM   #4
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It's definitely easier to set up an M3 for that track than an Z4MC. Parts for the M3 are plentiful from various manufacturers, and people have been racing them for years so they are well developed. The M Coupe has some carry over from that development, but lots of things are just slightly different so things are less straightforward.

I'm at the point with my car where I'd really like to get seats, harnesses and a half cage, but fitting all that in the Z4MC (and doing it with seats I'll fit in) will be much more difficult than in an M3. Add to that my desire to not cut up the interior panels to try an preserve some resale value (trying to make sure my changes are reversible) and you understand why I would recommend an M3.

If I had it to do over, I'd probably get an M3 for about half of what I paid for my Z4MC and I wouldn't feel bad about stripping it, caging it, etc.
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      07-01-2013, 04:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonH View Post
It's definitely easier to set up an M3 for that track than an Z4MC. Parts for the M3 are plentiful from various manufacturers, and people have been racing them for years so they are well developed. The M Coupe has some carry over from that development, but lots of things are just slightly different so things are less straightforward.

I'm at the point with my car where I'd really like to get seats, harnesses and a half cage, but fitting all that in the Z4MC (and doing it with seats I'll fit in) will be much more difficult than in an M3. Add to that my desire to not cut up the interior panels to try an preserve some resale value (trying to make sure my changes are reversible) and you understand why I would recommend an M3.

If I had it to do over, I'd probably get an M3 for about half of what I paid for my Z4MC and I wouldn't feel bad about stripping it, caging it, etc.
You can kiss resale value once you put in a cage regardless of stripped interior or not. I'd only keep it just because of personal taste/preference, sorta has that Porsche factory feel.
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      07-01-2013, 08:27 PM   #6
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I think you can get the E46 M3 below 2800lbs without too much work. To hit 2800lbs on a z4m, is $$,$$$
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      07-01-2013, 08:47 PM   #7
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I think you can get the E46 M3 below 2800lbs without too much work. To hit 2800lbs on a z4m, is $$,$$$
There is nearly 140 lbs just with new seats and battery and quickly reversible.

To take 600lbs out of the m3 is a lot of money. 400lbs is easy.
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      07-01-2013, 10:26 PM   #8
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I had both, 2x E46 M3 & now my E86 M and sometimes I kinda regret buying the M Coupe. I think I prefer the E46 M3 for the track. It's easier to drive, drift and push to the limit.

I think what I like the most about my M Coupe is the look/esthetic. Otherwise, I don't see advantage to track an M Coupe over an E46 M3. They are more expensive to buy and fix (body panel) and it's easier to fix big rubber on the E46 M3.
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      07-02-2013, 06:39 AM   #9
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So the popular opinion is to stick with the e46. Thanks for all of the opinions, there are a few things here that I hadn't thought about before.
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      07-02-2013, 09:19 AM   #10
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The allure of tracking the MZ4 Coupe over the E46 M3 isn't that it's faster. Oh believe you me it is. The allure for me is that it's much harder to drive the MZ4 Coupe faster, but once you get it right it is 10x more rewarding in the MZ4 Coupe than it is in the E46 M3.

If you drive both the MZ4 Coupe and E46 M3 to 7/10th, they'll feel about the same and, honestly, the E46 M3 will likely be a little faster due to the longer wheelbase. Get to 8/10th or beyond, the uber stiff, lighter chassis of the MZ4 Coupe really comes alive.
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      07-02-2013, 09:26 AM   #11
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Maybe I'm stating the obvious but the Z4m isn't as practical b/c

1) more expensive to purchase or replace
2) aftermarket parts are not readily as available and
3) it lacks space

But these arguments could be made with any other older BMW chassis, ie e36/46 m3. Sure the e46 m3 is the obvious comparable because they both share the same motor but it seems like a no brainer than any previous gen 3 series is going to be more practical.

But as GTfour mentioned, I prefer the Z4 for the non-practical reasons. I love the way the car looks, it's unique and I have some kind of emotional attachment to it -- and these reasons are probably the same reasons we bought the car in the first place. Can't tell you the number of times I've had folks come up to me at the paddock and ask about my car.
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      07-03-2013, 10:18 AM   #12
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I think I'll end up sticking with the M3 for a while. My biggest complaint with it is the lack of head room. I'll end up getting aftermarket seats and a rollbar a lot sooner than I would with the Z.

With the Z, I'd get enough head room for my helmet with the stock seats.
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      07-03-2013, 12:32 PM   #13
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If I had an M3 for the track I'd just pull out the headliner and replace the sunroof with a fixed carbon fiber panel. Also, I'd fit racing seats and position them as low as possible. I can't imagine I wouldn't have enough headroom. I just barely have enough in the Z4MC and it's going to be difficult to increase, even with a racing seat.
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      07-03-2013, 07:21 PM   #14
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I love tracking the Z4M Coupe - its been a challenge to keep pushing it just that bit more everytime. And it more rewarding and fun and the fact that its been a challenge, it has kept me engaged for almost 6 years.

I also like the uniqueness aspect of the car at tracks - call me vain

That being said, the most frustrating part about tracking it has been lack of off the shelf parts to continually and easily evolve the car as you see fit.

If you like the e46 M3, stay with it for now.
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      07-08-2013, 01:56 PM   #15
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Thanks for all the input guys!
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      07-08-2013, 02:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
I love tracking the Z4M Coupe - its been a challenge to keep pushing it just that bit more everytime. And it more rewarding and fun and the fact that its been a challenge, it has kept me engaged for almost 6 years.

I also like the uniqueness aspect of the car at tracks - call me vain

That being said, the most frustrating part about tracking it has been lack of off the shelf parts to continually and easily evolve the car as you see fit.

If you like the e46 M3, stay with it for now.
Actually, the parts hasn't been that big of an issue, now that we know E36 M3 suspension should fit just fine with some minor fine-tuning. Brakes are 99% E46 M3, with mostly same fitment for wheels and tires. The BIGGEST problem is once you move onto the interior, like cages (must be custom), seats (mostly custom), and electronics.

My biggest beef has been with the inability to store 4 wheels and tires in the car when I go to the track, so I am forced to put heat cycles onto the R-Comps. But since I get scrubs from other club racers, that hasn't been a huge issue and I'm not chasing the last 10th of a second at each track, so R-Comps with a few heat cycles on them doesn't bother me that much. Even the hundreds of heat cycle put on the front of my R-Comps is still better than most of the street tires out there, and I'm going to have the same issues with über street tires anyway.

Now, if I can get a nice, custom hitch installed to tow a track trailer? Game over.
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      07-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Now, if I can get a nice, custom hitch installed to tow a track trailer? Game over.
Got my hitch, got my trailer, trying them both together for the first time tomorrow heading up to Watkins Glen!
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      07-08-2013, 02:34 PM   #18
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Even the hundreds of heat cycle put on the front of my R-Comps
Mind telling us what R comps are getting 100 heat cycles?
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      07-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #19
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Mind telling us what R comps are getting 100 heat cycles?
Magic !!!
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      07-08-2013, 03:21 PM   #20
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Nitto NT-01. I've had them on the car (on the front, at least) since 2007. Assuming that they get 25 cycles* per year, I'd say they've got about 100 heat cycles on them already.

* Assuming 10 days a year average, and anywhere between 2-3 cycles per day
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      07-08-2013, 08:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Nitto NT-01. I've had them on the car (on the front, at least) since 2007. Assuming that they get 25 cycles* per year, I'd say they've got about 100 heat cycles on them already.

* Assuming 10 days a year average, and anywhere between 2-3 cycles per day
I know that you can drive harder than that. My R888 used to get 56 heat cycles and that is a similar rubber. Some say the same rubber.

That is craziness. I wish my tires would last that long.
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      07-09-2013, 01:02 AM   #22
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The fronts are heat cycled out. The car pushes much more than it used to.

Let's just say at the last Chuckwalla school my times on the Nittos were nearly 5 seconds slower than my times on fresh Falken Azenis RT-615Ks from the same configuration 2 years ago.

I keep using them because I'm too cheap and lazy to get new tires.
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