1M is out... How does it compare to our cars?

[johanness]

Why would a 6.1 Hemi satisfy me more than an award-winning S54 which I'm currently loving? Regardless, the points been made.

[The HACK]

The OTHER half of the equation...

To me, the signs that ///M GmbH has sold out is that cars like the 850CSi, which came with a reworked body panels, ///M engine (S70B56, unique "S" engine made by Motorsports only for this car, at the time), ///M tuned suspension AND only comes as a manual for an 8 series. Yet it did not receive the ///M badge.

The mighty Z8 with the S62 engine, all ///M suspension wizardry, manual only, did not receive the ///M designation.

The LeMans X5, another car to receive an "S" only engine (same S70 as above though), with all the ///M suspension tuning AND new body panels, did not get an ///M badge simply because it's AWD.

There were so many more BMW vehicles that far more deserving for an ///M badge but didn't. Yet the 1M Coupe, with a run of the mill N54 engine, gets one after all the great cars before it got shafted. That is the ONLY thing I have a problem with.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by The HACK

.......
There were so many more BMW vehicles that far more deserving for an ///M badge but didn't. Yet the 1M Coupe, with a run of the mill N54 engine, gets one after all the great cars before it got shafted. That is the ONLY thing I have a problem with.

I agree....
It all comes down to marketing these days.
They know they'll sell X% more cars just by adding a fifty-cent M badge.

[pokeybritches]

The biggest problem is that it's an M car you can't drive on the track... that is unless they have worked out the cooling issues of the N54. M is supposed to stand for "Motorsport," and you won't win very many races in limp mode.

We can all agree that the S54 was a maxed-out naturally aspirated I-6. The stroke could not be increased because of the piston speed. The bore could not be increased because the cylinder spacing was already so tight the block had to be made of iron, and lengthening a heavy iron block I-6 would seriously affect the car's handling. The S54 is a great engine with plenty of power, but it needs more power in the 1M to remain competitive. It is physically impossible to build a streetable NA I-6 with significantly more power that will last 100k+ miles without lengthening the block and increasing displacement.

It was a combination of everything that killed the S54. Weight of the car vs. performance requirements, age/marketing (buyers want something new and improved, and the S54 couldn't be "improved"), emissions, etc.

BMWs have gotten so heavy that they can't use a high-revving (low torque) engine to get their cars off the line. Ideally the M division would have developed a new turbo engine for this car that can perform on the race track. Perhaps a low compression S54 running mild boost would have been acceptable. Next would be the S65. I believe the reason they didn't use the S65 is because it doesn't flow with their new direction more so than fears of the 1M toppling the M3. Otherwise, they could stroke out the M3's S65 and call it an S66 to keep it a tick faster.

The N54 is last in my book. Its track record is terrible, it's off the shelf and not a special engine built specifically by the M division (reducing brand credibility), and it has less excitement than any naturally aspirated S engine. It's good for posting numbers for Car and Driver and daily driving. It will have none of the thrill of a screaming NA engine being driven to its limit on the track.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

The biggest problem is that it's an M car you can't drive on the track... that is unless they have worked out the cooling issues of the N54. M is supposed to stand for "Motorsport," and you won't win very many races in limp mode.

They have improved the oil cooling system for the 1m over the 135i... it really shouldn't have a major problem handling normal track duty.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Serious

They have improved the oil cooling system for the 1m over the 135i... it really shouldn't have a major problem handling normal track duty.

I don't want to presume we are smarter than BMW engineers, but from what I've seen, no amount of cooling will fix the problem.

First, on the N54 there's a cooling exchanger between the oil and coolant, and both oil can coolant temp will trigger limp mode. I've taken some unofficial sample of limp modes by local region instructors and club racers with this particular engine that have been logging their temperature for both coolant and oil, and it appears that half the time limp mode is triggered by coolant. It makes sense, since the N54, once shut down, uses the coolant to cool off the turbo. So on a 25 minute per session day, with up to 4 sessions, potentially that heat does not evacuate the system and coolant will run hot even after you come off the track. So even if you upgrade the oil cooling capacity, you are not addressing the inherent problem of a hot coolant due to using it to cool down the turbo AFTER shut-down.

Second, the architecture of the inline 6 is inherently problematic for cooling the last two cylinders. While in a naturally aspirated state, the lack of cooling in cylinder 5 and 6 does not rear its ugly head, you put two turbos on a engine designed to run hotter than engines from the last few generations? That inherent cooling issues have no solutions. You can artificially bump the water flow rate, but then you're still operating with bank 5 & 6 covered under the bulk head with little to no access to vent that heat. There's a reason why no manufacturer has tried to turbocharge an aluminum inline 6, and only two turbo-charged inline 6 has ever had any sort of success in motorsports. It's far more common to see turbo'ed I-4, V-6, and V-8.

Third, we've seen plenty of attempts at trying to keep this N54 engine running cool enough to survive a couple of 25 minute sessions. I haven't seen any evidence of anyone actually having any sort of real success in this regards. There are a few N54 drivers claiming to have fixed the problem with larger oil coolers, and yet there are just as many who reported to continue to have limp issues with the same fix.

I will reserve judgement, but if I'm a betting man, I'd put money against BMW at having this issue solved at this point.

[Finnegan]

Pokey, great concise summary....

Hack, that's a pretty compelling argument. Of course time will tell, but I would not be willing to bet against your assessment. I will reserve judgement as well--the proof will be in the pudding so to speak, but since we're speculating anyway....

The Hack's post raises some interesting questions. Assuming he is right about the inherent design issues with the I6 design and turbos (and I believe he is), it sounds like the ///M division is going to come out with:

1. Some very creative plumbing (unlikely I'd say).
2. (Gasp, heresy, outrage, LOL) a V6 turbo
3. An I4 (E30 reborn--kind of) to get around the problem if they stick with the turbo solution (which we know is probably certain).

If they go the I4 direction I think they'll really need to reign in the weight on these cars or it's DOA. If they stick with the I6 design the ///M division's cars will be most likely be "M" for "Marketing" and "Motorway" (since they will limited to the street as they won't really be be track capable).

None of the "solutions" are likely to sit well with the faithful (aside from the I4 possibly, since it can be played as the E30 reborn, yada yada), although I'm sure some would be convinced by other designs if the performance/dynamics were there and track requirements fullfilled. I for one would not bitch about a lower weight car with the great handling, brakes, engine dynamics, and cooling capacity.

[tarheel91]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I don't want to presume we are smarter than BMW engineers, but from what I've seen, no amount of cooling will fix the problem.

First, on the N54 there's a cooling exchanger between the oil and coolant, and both oil can coolant temp will trigger limp mode. I've taken some unofficial sample of limp modes by local region instructors and club racers with this particular engine that have been logging their temperature for both coolant and oil, and it appears that half the time limp mode is triggered by coolant. It makes sense, since the N54, once shut down, uses the coolant to cool off the turbo. So on a 25 minute per session day, with up to 4 sessions, potentially that heat does not evacuate the system and coolant will run hot even after you come off the track. So even if you upgrade the oil cooling capacity, you are not addressing the inherent problem of a hot coolant due to using it to cool down the turbo AFTER shut-down.

Second, the architecture of the inline 6 is inherently problematic for cooling the last two cylinders. While in a naturally aspirated state, the lack of cooling in cylinder 5 and 6 does not rear its ugly head, you put two turbos on a engine designed to run hotter than engines from the last few generations? That inherent cooling issues have no solutions. You can artificially bump the water flow rate, but then you're still operating with bank 5 & 6 covered under the bulk head with little to no access to vent that heat. There's a reason why no manufacturer has tried to turbocharge an aluminum inline 6, and only two turbo-charged inline 6 has ever had any sort of success in motorsports. It's far more common to see turbo'ed I-4, V-6, and V-8.

Third, we've seen plenty of attempts at trying to keep this N54 engine running cool enough to survive a couple of 25 minute sessions. I haven't seen any evidence of anyone actually having any sort of real success in this regards. There are a few N54 drivers claiming to have fixed the problem with larger oil coolers, and yet there are just as many who reported to continue to have limp issues with the same fix.

I will reserve judgement, but if I'm a betting man, I'd put money against BMW at having this issue solved at this point.

The coolant is used to cool the turbo after shutdown, but oil is used to cool it during operation. Cooler oil = cooler turbo during operation = less work the coolant has to do afterwards. And frankly, I'm pretty sure BMW engineers can do a better job of designing a cooling system than Joe Schmoe (no offense to Joe Schmoe).

I also wouldn't be surprised to see a dry sump system in place (press releases say the transmission is dry sump). Dry sump systems for turbos greatly help in terms of short term and long term reliability since it reduces the distance the oil has to travel and helps to prevent heatsink on start up and shutdown. I wouldn't count BMW out in this regard.

[Eccentric]

Originally Posted by The HACK

The OTHER half of the equation...

To me, the signs that ///M GmbH has sold out is that cars like the 850CSi, which came with a reworked body panels, ///M engine (S70B56, unique "S" engine made by Motorsports only for this car, at the time), ///M tuned suspension AND only comes as a manual for an 8 series. Yet it did not receive the ///M badge.

The mighty Z8 with the S62 engine, all ///M suspension wizardry, manual only, did not receive the ///M designation.

The LeMans X5, another car to receive an "S" only engine (same S70 as above though), with all the ///M suspension tuning AND new body panels, did not get an ///M badge simply because it's AWD.

There were so many more BMW vehicles that far more deserving for an ///M badge but didn't. Yet the 1M Coupe, with a run of the mill N54 engine, gets one after all the great cars before it got shafted. That is the ONLY thing I have a problem with.

That's a great argument, Hack! I love the 1M, but i cant help but wonder if it would be better as the tii or the 135is.. But anyway, i think that the widebody+more power-weight is a good recipe for an e30 m3 throwback. If im correct, wasnt the 4banger in the e30 m3 just a run of the mill bimmer engine with more aggressive cams, and a larger bore and stroke?

[The HACK]

Well...To call the S14 just a run of the mill BMW engine with a re-worked cam would be to call the S54 just a normal M50 block with a little bit of work up top.

The S14 was "derived" form the M10 block, uses the same block (not dissimilar to the S54 which was derived from the M50 block since it was the last of the iron blocked BMW engines) but has completely re-worked valve-train to allow it to rev to stratospheric heights and also 4 individual throttle bodies. I believe the only thing it shared with the M10, is the block.

[Eccentric]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Well...To call the S14 just a run of the mill BMW engine with a re-worked cam would be to call the S54 just a normal M50 block with a little bit of work up top.

The S14 was "derived" form the M10 block, uses the same block (not dissimilar to the S54 which was derived from the M50 block since it was the last of the iron blocked BMW engines) but has completely re-worked valve-train to allow it to rev to stratospheric heights and also 4 individual throttle bodies. I believe the only thing it shared with the M10, is the block.

Agree 100%. The point I was trying to make (iPhone prevented me from properly reviewing my post) was that all S engines are M engines first, and that until we see what changes the n54 got in the 1m, we should reserve judgement about it not being special. I think the power should not be an issue here as most of us just wanted a 1st that was lighter,track ready, and didn't understate at the limit. I think that's a success.

I say props to BMW for not playing the bhp game with Audi and the ttrs.

Peak-power issues aside, in my opinion, the addition of an M badge was important because it showed that M division is catering to an almost Everyman who is into tracking there car. I think bc the power gains are so small over the 135 that wannabes like mane who own m3s for the 414hp v8 will stay away. Me likes this.

[dazed^]

Originally Posted by Eccentric

Peak-power issues aside, in my opinion, the addition of an M badge was important because it showed that M division is catering to an almost Everyman who is into tracking there car. I think bc the power gains are so small over the 135 that wannabes like mane who own m3s for the 414hp v8 will stay away. Me likes this.

I don't follow this. Didn't The Hack and others just say that the 1M cannot be tracked? So this catering to "everyman" seems to go wrong.

I htink that if anything, the M badge will increasingly attract wannabe's. They just go for the badge, and the price.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by dazed^

I don't follow this. Didn't The Hack and others just say that the 1M cannot be tracked? So this catering to "everyman" seems to go wrong.

I htink that if anything, the M badge will increasingly attract wannabe's. They just go for the badge, and the price.

The car will be just fine on the track.

and the M badge has attracted wannabe's since the e30 m3 days. don't act like it's a new thing.

[dazed^]

Originally Posted by Serious

The car will be just fine on the track.

and the M badge has attracted wannabe's since the e30 m3 days. don't act like it's a new thing.

No, certainly not new. Hell, the venerable Z4 M was so very popular with the wannabe's because it has "almost as many M badges as it has exhausts".

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by tarheel91

The coolant is used to cool the turbo after shutdown, but oil is used to cool it during operation. Cooler oil = cooler turbo during operation = less work the coolant has to do afterwards. And frankly, I'm pretty sure BMW engineers can do a better job of designing a cooling system than Joe Schmoe (no offense to Joe Schmoe).

Well...

Cooling issues in the E36 and E46 with the aluminum radiator and plastic necks were well documented. Cooling issues in the S52 and S54 for race use were well documented too, although not nearly to the extent that it plagues the N5X. So before we jump to say that BMW engineers know what they're doing...Remember, BMW engineering is now driven more by profit than anything else.

I think, especially with the recent direction BMW is headed in, all I can say at this point is I will await judgement on the 1M's actual track worthiness. If it does indeed address all the overheating issues that the N54 suffers from, it will be a big plus and certainly a step in the right direction for me from BMW.

But that begs the question. Why hasn't there been an attempt at resolving this throughout the N54's lifecycle?

[wildag]

Just in case anyone missed it... here's a 360 view of the car

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...isualizer.html

[Serious]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Well...

Cooling issues in the E36 and E46 with the aluminum radiator and plastic necks were well documented. Cooling issues in the S52 and S54 for race use were well documented too, although not nearly to the extent that it plagues the N5X. So before we jump to say that BMW engineers know what they're doing...Remember, BMW engineering is now driven more by profit than anything else.

I think, especially with the recent direction BMW is headed in, all I can say at this point is I will await judgement on the 1M's actual track worthiness. If it does indeed address all the overheating issues that the N54 suffers from, it will be a big plus and certainly a step in the right direction for me from BMW.

But that begs the question. Why hasn't there been an attempt at resolving this throughout the N54's lifecycle?

Plastic upper radiator hose outlet failure was just as common on the street as it was on the track and the overheating issues of the s54 on the track really aren't that big of a deal unless the car was really being pushed hard, for the most part it was completely fine for an HPDE. Even so the issue was often solved with just a motorsport thermostat.

Neither of those issues were as abundant as the limp mode n54, and I assume given the severity and occurring rate of the problem the M engineers will have addressed and solved it with the 1m.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by tarheel91

I also wouldn't be surprised to see a dry sump system in place (press releases say the transmission is dry sump). Dry sump systems for turbos greatly help in terms of short term and long term reliability since it reduces the distance the oil has to travel and helps to prevent heatsink on start up and shutdown. I wouldn't count BMW out in this regard.

Drysump for the engine. Corvette GS has it, and I would love to see that. Addresses any potential starvation issues as well (coming from the guy with a Cayman S that well known for this problem).

Originally Posted by Serious

The car will be just fine on the track.

That's a pretty strong and definitive statement, and I hope you're correct.

Personally, I think it's a bit early to know one way or the other....Anything other than actual use at various tracks under various conditions by various drivers isn't, from my perspective, a valid set of tests. It might be fine, it might not be--I think we need to wait and see. We (including me) are all speculating at this point.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Well...

Cooling issues in the E36 and E46 with the aluminum radiator and plastic necks were well documented. Cooling issues in the S52 and S54 for race use were well documented too, although not nearly to the extent that it plagues the N5X. So before we jump to say that BMW engineers know what they're doing...Remember, BMW engineering is now driven more by profit than anything else.

I think, especially with the recent direction BMW is headed in, all I can say at this point is I will await judgement on the 1M's actual track worthiness. If it does indeed address all the overheating issues that the N54 suffers from, it will be a big plus and certainly a step in the right direction for me from BMW.

But that begs the question. Why hasn't there been an attempt at resolving this throughout the N54's lifecycle?

Agreed, if they have addressed the overheating issues that would be a big plus, and yes, we need to wait and see.

I also agree that BMW engineering is driven by profit, just as any car company. And in the quest to provide good and frugal engineering (and due to bean counters) sometimes this leads to cutting corners. Example: IIRC early N54 cars didn't even have an oil cooler and that was an issue off the track; cars were retrofitted with oil coolers and subsequent iterations of the platform all had coolers. While there have been improvements (hadn't followed this in the past year or more) such as supplemental cooling capacity on the IS models (or upgrade package) those provide limited improvements.

And it's not just "limp mode" overheating that's an issue--as heat soak occurs the intercooler, oil, coolant, cannot keep up resulting in the ECU pulling boost and timing and hence power drops--all of that happens before limp.

Sure, you can use things such as aftermarket meth, or water sprayers (ala some Japanese intercooler tricks) to try and keep the intercooler working efficiently, but they're only good up to a point. The ECU has many things built in to hardware/software to protect the engine and allow it to keep running--and those essential safety features if employed (due to heat) would certainly affect the car's track ability unless some really cool (no pun intended) measures have been employed to address them.

The point here is that a turbo car by its very nature is a more complicated beast to keep operating at full tilt under hard and hot conditions. Not that the folks at BMW aren't smart, but these things start becoming very costly to implement. I honestly and sincerely hope the cooling issues have been addressed. Maybe they've found ways to be exceptionally cleaver and frugal...time will tell.

[Eccentric]

Originally Posted by dazed^

I don't follow this. Didn't The Hack and others just say that the 1M cannot be tracked? So this catering to "everyman" seems to go wrong.

I htink that if anything, the M badge will increasingly attract wannabe's. They just go for the badge, and the price.

No offense to the Hack, who is undoubtedly knowledgeable, but he also said about two days ago that he'd put his professional reputation on the line and say that the 1M would weigh about 3600lbs. Lets keep to what we've actually been told by Scott26 and BMW.

Fact is, no one really knows what changes have been made, so its all speculation here. And yeah poseurs buy everything, but are more inclined to buy the fast cars when theyre laced with luxury.

The base carrera was not a poseur car before it became luxurious. Porsches were snap oversteer-prone and poseurs seemed to just crashed. Now even the GT2RS can be DD. Same goes with the m3. Once the e46 got luxurious, the M3 became a fast car that requires no DD sacrifices. Sacrifices that the Zed crowd doesnt mind making. Hence our overwhelming percentages of track-driven cars.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Eccentric

Fact is, no one really knows what changes have been made, so its all speculation here. And yeah poseurs buy everything, but are more inclined to buy the fast cars when theyre laced with luxury.

Yep. And don't forget me! I thought it was going to be heavier as well (given past M car vs. base) history. I guessed wrong--although I did say it was a guess and not a "fact" (for whatever that's worth ).

So, concerns about "heat" may be completely blown away by reality. Which would be cool (pun intended).

It's going to be fun to see what these cars do IRL. Surprises can be fun! (And I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised--in which case picking up a nice used one after the initial depreciation might be something to consider....)

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Eccentric

No offense to the Hack...

I'll say this. I'm not often wrong, and when I am, I rarely ever admit it. But this is a case where I am GLAD to have been proven wrong. At least, in some small way, BMW has made a concerted effort in reducing weight of their consumer car(s) for the very first time.

Let's hope I'm proven wrong about the engine and it's propensity to go erectile disfunction on the track. It's another case where I'd be glad to be wrong.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I'll say this. I'm not often wrong, and when I am, I rarely ever admit it. But this is a case where I am GLAD to have been proven wrong. At least, in some small way, BMW has made a concerted effort in reducing weight of their consumer car(s) for the very first time.

Let's hope I'm proven wrong about the engine and it's propensity to go erectile disfunction on the track. It's another case where I'd be glad to be wrong.

Hey, I think those of us who thought it would be heavier are all happy to be wrong about the weight. This is a move in the right direction for both performance and efficiency. It's a win.

I hope I'm wrong about heat too. BTW, the ED comment just killed me!