1M is out... How does it compare to our cars?

[dazed^]

Wow, twice as many E30 M3's as Z4M's; didn't realize just how low comparatively production numbers were for our cars.
Kind of scary, but then again many of the important parts (e.g., engine) were shared with other models, so parts should remain available in the future.

[P-Man]

Looks fun but doubt it is as fun as the Z4M! Curious to see all the car magazine tests that will be coming out on it!

[Eccentric]

yeah small bimmers with inline engines are what BMW does best. Im sure we all agree about that

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by dazed^

Wow, twice as many E30 M3's as Z4M's; didn't realize just how low comparatively production numbers were for our cars.
Kind of scary, but then again many of the important parts (e.g., engine) were shared with other models, so parts should remain available in the future.

My concern as a long-term owner is body panels, especially with the coupe. I'm seriously considering storing a new hood, hatch, and f/r bumpers as insurance. If I never need them, they'll still be rare NOS pieces that someone will want down the line.

[dazed^]

Originally Posted by epbrown

My concern as a long-term owner is body panels, especially with the coupe. I'm seriously considering storing a new hood, hatch, and f/r bumpers as insurance. If I never need them, they'll still be rare NOS pieces that someone will want down the line.

Ufff... don't say such things... you're putting ideas in my head!

/OT

[ANILE8]

That's strange.

Most people that have driven both the Cayman S and the Z4-M from this forum say the opposite.

Not trying to start an argument, just saying that's all.

[krnnerdboy]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Its also strange that everyone on this forum who thinks the z4m is better also A) has a z4m and B) 99% of them havnt driven the cayman s, let alone owned one.
Im going to take a guess here and say that if we were on planet-9, all of those guys would say the cayman S was better.

Ive owned both, and the cayman S is hands down a better car in every which way. The automotive press would also nearly unanimously agree with that as well.

Well it does have better handling, higher limits, and a refined ride, but it just doesn't have the muscle or loving character of the z4m. That said, this is all subjective and based on drivers values. And yes I traded my 997.1 for my e85m and would do it all over again But I would have both if I could.

I also believe that the given the same HP the Cayman S would no doubt put down the faster lap time, time and again. And as good as the e9*M chassis is you feel like your sitting on top of the roof of the e8*m chassis.

[jragan]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Its also strange that everyone on this forum who thinks the z4m is better also A) has a z4m and B) 99% of them havnt driven the cayman s, let alone owned one.
Im going to take a guess here and say that if we were on planet-9, all of those guys would say the cayman S was better.

Ive owned both, and the cayman S is hands down a better car in every which way. The automotive press would also nearly unanimously agree with that as well.

You can't just say "the cayman s is hands down better" without specifying the generation. The 987CS.1s are not better at all. 987CS.2s (with the addition of LSD, etc) are better. I frequented all the P-Car outings at the local road course in my M-Coupe and the 987CS.1 Cayman S was never close to being competition. When I was just starting out and still had instructors, the P-Car instructors RAVED about my car when they had their turn to drive it in that the performance was exceptional and the seating setup for track driving (side bolsters, etc) were far and above anything Porsche offered.

The fact of the matter is that if you're going to compare a cayman S to the E86, you have to stay within the same generation to make it a "fair" comparison (which would be 987CS.1, not .2). Also, on the various P-Car forums (renntech, rennlist, 6peed, planet cayman, etc) whenever I've mentioned my M Coupe being faster than the same generation Cayman S, it's been crickets -- no one has rebutted in the slightest.

[The HACK]

The Cayman S (edit: pre 09) was far superior on the handling department. The MZ4 Coupe had power advantage. Neither car, in my opinion, was superior taken as a whole package...It was really just a preference issue. The Cayman S felt more precise but also in a way, insulated and numb at the limits. The MZ4 Coupe is a handful but once you master the chassis, it is far more rewarding to drive and drive well. At the end of the day, had it not been for my distain for all things Porsche I might have ended up with a Cayman S instead of the MZ4 Coupe, since when I bought mine they were readily available rather than having to wait nearly 5 months after I placed my order for the MZ4 C.

On the quantities built and margins, this is something I read somewhere but can't supply the actual source for it since I don't usually bother to bookmark such things, but I recall that the Concept Coupe that was built, was design and put together by Magna Styer in Austria as a proposal to BMW using nothing but existing parts from BMW's own parts bin, and the ONLY parts that were re-designed were the roof, hatch, and minor modifications to the stamping for the rear fenders. It didn't cost BMW a dime to design the chassis. They in essence bought the Magna Styer concept for a much smaller amount of money typically required for a new chassis design, and slap on a couple of existing engines to make the E86. They had a pretty big margin buffer to start with, that's why they were able to offer nearly $9,000 in trunk cash once they realized that anyone who wanted one BAD like myself have already bought one and that the vast majority of their biggest market isn't capable of driving a small sporty car in a manual (for the M that is).

[johanness]

^^ IF by better you mean less involved and more boring. I test-drove one on my path to Z4MC ownership and was BORED to death with it. Felt like the wife could put down equal lap-times; and she only got her license in Sept. Point is out cars are involving and fun and more difficult to master. Something I feel is lacking in the Cayman S (not to mention our rides are MUCH better looking).

To each his/her own however.

[ANILE8]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Its also strange that everyone on this forum who thinks the z4m is better also A) has a z4m and B) 99% of them havnt driven the cayman s, let alone owned one.
Im going to take a guess here and say that if we were on planet-9, all of those guys would say the cayman S was better.

Ive owned both, and the cayman S is hands down a better car in every which way. The automotive press would also nearly unanimously agree with that as well.

Well that being said, I had a track day in an E92 M3 and I thought that compared to my Z4-MC it handled like a boat.

Straight line punch was not impressive to me and the driver feedback through the chassis was rather remote.

But you feel the opposite, so that proves as everyone else has said it is subjective and cannot be a definitive one is 'better' type response in this case.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I dont think saying if you drive an e9x m3, you dont get it. I got rid of my z4m coupe for an e92 m3 and have been quite happy. While I really enjoyed the Z4M, if I had to do it all over again, id have bought a second cayman S instead. As much as I like the z4mc, the cayman S was hands down the better car in every which way you could slice it.
I personally like the near unflappable balance of my e92 m3 (more akin to the cayman S where you just keep pushing because of the confidence it inspires) over the more finicky (sp?) feel of the z4m.

Originally Posted by shift@red

Its also strange that everyone on this forum who thinks the z4m is better also A) has a z4m and B) 99% of them havnt driven the cayman s, let alone owned one.
Im going to take a guess here and say that if we were on planet-9, all of those guys would say the cayman S was better.

Ive owned both, and the cayman S is hands down a better car in every which way. The automotive press would also nearly unanimously agree with that as well.

Ummm ok who brought the cayman S into this?

But since we are on the topic and you seem to be on a car review rampage today I'll try to explain why I both agree with and couldn't care less about your reviews of the cayman S/Z4M & e9x m3/e46 m3. It's because the cayman S, like the e9x m3, is a cold soulless clinical robot of a car which will be throughly pointless and irrelevant as soon as Porsche & BMW release the next latest and greatest model. In 25 years not many will even remember or care about a cayman S, it will be swept under the rug while other rarer more exciting & charismatic cars take their place in enthusiasts hearts.

So while on an engineering level the CS may have the Mz4 licked, just as the e9x m3 is "better" than an e46 m3; but the really great cars aren't defined by cornering speed, gizmo's or gadgets, or even a critic's consensus. Both the CS & 4th gen m3 were made solely to dominate the marketplace at a specific time & place but they both share the lack of charisma and personality to evoke a real positive emotional response 10 years down the road when they lack supreme statistics and are no longer the cutting edge.

I get that everyone has differing opinions, and different people buy cars for different reasons but I see you missing the bigger picture. You can't define what's better by a lack of understeer or leather quality, because there is a lot more to it than that.

[ANILE8]

Originally Posted by shift@red

When were we talking about the e92 m3 compared to the z4m?

BTW- straight line on an e9x m3 is in a different game compared to the z4m. 105 trap speed vs 113 trap speed. Not even close.

The point was being made in an effort to illustrate the difference in perceptions.

Not specifically to compare the two vehicles in the example I used.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I feel differently. The Cayman S is like Albert Pujols (if you know baseball). He excels and does everything nearly perfect, every time. From hitting for power, to avg, to defense. He is a perrenial all star and is always the favorite for MVP.
The z4m is like Manny Ramirez. Great player, but just isnt as refined a ballplayer. He is good at some things and not so good at others and wont ever be considered the same calibre a player as Pujols.

funny analogy considering that like the cayman S pujols is just a robot of a ballplayer, does everything well but is completely boring... then you have the other side someone who is good at many things, but not as complete yet is way more interesting and always draws a response.

[krnnerdboy]

Originally Posted by shift@red

What do you mean given the same HP the cayman S would put down better lap times? Are you talking about vs the e9x m3? Becuase as they stand now, with 320 hp the lap times are quite close as it is.
I do agree the seating position of the e9x m3 took getting used to again, but it is a far superior chasis nonetheless.

I was actually referring to the mz4 and about how subjective this whole debate is. Regardless of how "superior" the cayman s is in regards of track times, tactility, and chassis balance, the raw involving nature of the M is the car for me. And not to insult anyone in anyway my opinion is that the cayman .1.2, e90 m3 are boring to ME. that doesn''t mean I wouldn't buy them though just not as a replacement for my mz4. In fact most likely buying the e90m or x5 in a couple month as well,and I even suggested my buddy to purchase a cayman over a mz4 b/c of his needs and driving style

[Serious]

Originally Posted by shift@red

pujols is a charismatic guy while manny's results are questionable at best since hes been caught having to cheat by using performance enhancing drugs. one side of his game is good while the other is a liability. i also think a lot of what manny does is strictly for the attention.

is this a baseball thread or a car thread?

[johanness]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The cayman S is flat out probably the best driver's car in the world, and certainly one of the best sports car ever made while BMW could barely (and most at large discounts) sell 10,000 z4ms.

since when does greater exclusivity mean a poorer product?

Originally Posted by shift@red

Its funny how you think you know a car because you took it for a 10 minute test drive. Give me a break.

LOL. Who said it was 10 minutes? I had the S for 1/2 day on loan thru my friends relationship with the GM of the dealer.

Originally Posted by shift@red

Let me guess, the Z4M is more involving and fun than a 458 italia because it has a 6mt and everyone and their grandma could put down fast lap times in a 458, right?

I'm judging the car not on ANYTHING else but SOLELY on how it MADE ME FEEL. Maybe that's a point you're not getting. It felt boring to me. Period. Unless ur saying we're not entitled to that and have to conform to your fan-boy rants?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The HACK

On the quantities built and margins, this is something I read somewhere but can't supply the actual source for it since I don't usually bother to bookmark such things, but I recall that the Concept Coupe that was built, was design and put together by Magna Styer in Austria as a proposal to BMW using nothing but existing parts from BMW's own parts bin, and the ONLY parts that were re-designed were the roof, hatch, and minor modifications to the stamping for the rear fenders. It didn't cost BMW a dime to design the chassis. They in essence bought the Magna Styer concept for a much smaller amount of money typically required for a new chassis design, and slap on a couple of existing engines to make the E86. They had a pretty big margin buffer to start with, that's why they were able to offer nearly $9,000 in trunk cash once they realized that anyone who wanted one BAD like myself have already bought one and that the vast majority of their biggest market isn't capable of driving a small sporty car in a manual (for the M that is).

I can assure you the design of the car cost BMW more than a dime regardless of who came up with the initial concept/proposal.

Yes, as I said, most of the parts were available, but it is never as simple as slapping an exiting engine and parts together. It is a distinct product and there are all sorts of issues that need to be managed and tested. Also, you need to make modifications to your production line and manage all that, which is not as trivial as modifying a rear panel mold on a CAD screen.

Anyway, regardless of what the margins were for BMW, my point is that they only sold 10000 cars worldwide, which is not a lot. If BMW consumers were really after a relatively lightweight agile car (not an all-rounder), it would have most likely sold more. So when people on BMW forums collectively say they want a lighter car (as in the 3000lb/300hp rants of the past), I doubt that most of them would actually buy one if BMW made such a car again. It would either be too expensive or not be an all-rounder...

[chickdr]

Originally Posted by aerobod

It isn't under 3000lbs in the current model, if you use the same standard EU measurement that BMW does.

Using the EU weight method:
Base Boxster is 1410kg (3109lbs)
Boxster S with PDK is 1455kg (3208lbs)
Z4M Roadster is 1485kg (3276lbs)
S2000 is 1320kg (2910lbs)
1M Coupe is 1570kg (3461lbs)
Cayman S is 1425kg (3142lbs)
Z4M Coupe is 1495kg (3296lbs).

So, in an apples-to-apples comparison, using the Z4M Roadster as 100%
Base Boxster is 95% of the weight
Heaviest Boxster (-S with PDK) is 98% of the weight
S2000 is 89% of the weight.
1M Coupe is 106% of the weight.
Cayman S is 96% of the weight.
Z4M Coupe is 101% of the weight.

Using the DIN weight that Porsche also quotes, base Boxster is 1355kg (2987lbs), Boxster S with PDK is 1380kg (3042lbs). Viewing the online tech spec weights for Porsche US, the weight varies considerably for each model, depending on which screen or brochure you are looking at.

The problem is that worldwide different manufacturers use different weight standards in different countries. The only standard that is commonly mandated is the EU standard.

I don't know about that. The www.porsche.com web site I looked at shows the 2.9 and S Boxster both UNDER 3000#s (2943#'s and 2978#'s to be exact) for a 6-sp US spec model. I would assume this is under the same guidelines as BMW.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by krnnerdboy

I was actually referring to the mz4 and about how subjective this whole debate is. Regardless of how "superior" the cayman s is in regards of track times, tactility, and chassis balance, the raw involving nature of the M is the car for me. And not to insult anyone in anyway my opinion is that the cayman .1.2, e90 m3 are boring to ME. that doesn''t mean I wouldn't buy them though just not as a replacement for my mz4. In fact most likely buying the e90m or x5 in a couple month as well,and I even suggested my buddy to purchase a cayman over a mz4 b/c of his needs and driving style

Great post. At the end of the day it's what floats your boat. Faster, more power, better track times--if it's not fun to you then why bother? What matters is how it makes you feel. I mean, why own a toy that you don't really have a blast playing with? (Let me say right here if anyone doesn't know already, I have access to both cars--CS and like both of them--a lot.)

But the Z4M does have a unique character IMO. It's a bit quirky, a real handful, raw, and challenging (and rewarding) to drive. It's always running on about 5 cups of coffee. And it's a hell of a lot of fun because of those qualities IMO. I think that's what a lot of folks find so much fun--the passion/emotion the car evokes.

As much as I enjoy the CS if we could have only one of them it would be the Z4M. It's the one we plan to hang on forever if we can. Love my CS but I can't see having it two years from now....I can't see getting bored with the Z4M. Faster and more capable cars may come and go, but unless something much more fun--to me (and to Skelekitty, since it's her baby I just get to borrow now and then) comes along it's going to be with us a very long time.

[ZStig]

for all its worth, I sold my gen 2 Viper gts for a z4m and don't regret it

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by chickdr

I don't know about that. The www.porsche.com web site I looked at shows the 2.9 and S Boxster both UNDER 3000#s (2943#'s and 2978#'s to be exact) for a 6-sp US spec model. I would assume this is under the same guidelines as BMW.

It looks like the Porsche US site uses stripped weight (no options, which is pretty rare for a Porsche), whereas the EU weight has to be based on commonly sold configuration. Porsche seems to have a much bigger weight discrepancy than BMW when comparing the US and EU weights. The EU weight method is much more comparable between manufacturers (due to stricter measurement criteria).

In the end it comes down to measuring a given car with it's specific options, but it seems as though the weight difference between the Z4M and Boxster is not as big as the US weights would indicate, based on the more strictly controlled EU weight measurements (which includes 75kg load, but only 90% fuel tank fill), and that it would be difficult to find a Boxster configuration under 3,000 lbs with a full tank of fuel.