What cc injectors came with you're ESS VT 500/525 kit

[seank]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

I have no idea , but i do know at 350cc the injectors are 100% maxed out with 0 safety margin at 430whp. So if you have headers you will be in the same boat as me. Have you dyno'd you're car yet ?
George

I haven't and I am not sure when I will. It is track season, so my track car is getting all the attention. The z4m just drives to work and back and sits in the garage when it's nasty. I will definitely look to see what injectors I have though.

Did you say they are sending larger injectors and a tune?

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by seank

I haven't and I am not sure when I will. It is track season, so my track car is getting all the attention. The z4m just drives to work and back and sits in the garage when it's nasty. I will definitely look to see what injectors I have though.

Did you say they are sending larger injectors and a tune?

Correct , I am getting a new tune and larger injectors . Looking at my midrange AFR's it obvious the current tune was designed for the small injectors because AFR's look good until 6500 rpm. I just don't understand the 350 cc choice . Doing my own calculations even at 5 bar the injectors are at 100% duty cycle by 400whp . Its common safe practice to have a 20% buffer in injector size and flow capacity , and ESS had 0 . So my Supersprint headers and catless S pipe put me way over what the injectors could handle . This is why I was getting a different limp mode at the track even after i put the check valve in . The car was running lean as shit . I have much respect for the Z4M ECU , it saved the motor .

[gmd2003]

To put how small the 350cc injectors are in perspective , they are the OEM injectors for Audi's 2.0 liter turbo motors..........
George

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Correct , I am getting a new tune and larger injectors . Looking at my midrange AFR's it obvious the current tune was designed for the small injectors because AFR's look good until 6500 rpm. I just don't understand the 350 cc choice . Doing my own calculations even at 5 bar the injectors are at 100% duty cycle by 400whp . Its common safe practice to have a 20% buffer in injector size and flow capacity , and ESS had 0 . So my Supersprint headers and catless S pipe put me way over what the injectors could handle . This is why I was getting a different limp mode at the track even after i put the check valve in . The car was running lean as shit . I have much respect for the Z4M ECU , it saved the motor .

Just imagine that an idiot mistake from ESS with the injectors crashed your car due to a limp mode, you could have crashed again if you didn't pay attention to a parameter that is way far to be the culprit => ESS mistakes.

I just wish i didn't buy this kit and i went another route.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by tikamak

Just imagine that an idiot mistake from ESS with the injectors crashed your car due to a limp mode, you could have crashed again if you didn't pay attention to a parameter that is way far to be the culprit => ESS mistakes.

I just wish i didn't buy this kit and i went another route.

Bottom line is no company does not make compromises when designing kits and mistakes for that matter. The key is, you have to thoroughly check every component and how they function on YOUR car. My car had significant exhaust mods over what ESS tested and thus why the kit was not safe on my car. If I had been bone stock it would have been ok ( not ideal to say the least but ok). It was on me going to the track the time I crashed before thoroughly sorting out the kit and whether it was working well on my car. At least ESS quickly fixes problems at their cost when they arise and has fast friendly customer service. I just wish their design philosophy was to over build kits , and not the " This should be ok approach". To their credit they have a very safe tune timing wise or the engine would have gone boom as well. A lot of companies try to go for dyno queen numbers and that would have been disastrous in this case.
George

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Bottom line is no company does not make compromises when designing kits and mistakes for that matter. The key is, you have to thoroughly check every component and how they function on YOUR car. My car had significant exhaust mods over what ESS tested and thus why the kit was not safe on my car. If I had been bone stock it would have been ok ( not ideal to say the least but ok). It was on me going to the track the time I crashed before thoroughly sorting out the kit and whether it was working well on my car. At least ESS quickly fixes problems at their cost when they arise and has fast friendly customer service. I just wish their design philosophy was to over build kits , and not the " This should be ok approach". To their credit they have a very safe tune timing wise or the engine would have gone boom as well. A lot of companies try to go for dyno queen numbers and that would have been disastrous in this case.
George

I am catless as well but i have ESS VT2-500 and i am supposed to develop around 7-7.5 psi.

Do you think i might have a problem as well with these 350cc injectors?

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by tikamak

I am catless as well but i have ESS VT2-500 and i am supposed to develop around 7-7.5 psi.

Do you think i might have a problem as well with these 350cc injectors?

You need to dyno you're car and check AFR's and what power you are making . VT - 500 has been out for awhile with 350 cc injectors and no one has reported issues though . I don't like the injector choice but if you are below 430whp you should be ok .

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

You need to dyno you're car and check AFR's and what power you are making . VT - 500 has been out for awhile with 350 cc injectors and no one has reported issues though . I don't like the injector choice but if you are below 430whp you should be ok .

Last dyno i was at 505 crank which is 430 whp exact.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by tikamak

Last dyno i was at 505 crank which is 430 whp exact.

What were your AFR's up top? Good thing you don't track you're car bc you have no safety margin.

[gmd2003]

Is no one with a VT-500 kit concerned about having 350cc injectors, because you all do? I'm still not convinced that the new ones I'm receiving will be enough. Unfortunately, i have no way currently to log injector duty cycle , so I'll be stuck with AFR monitoring only which certainly doesn't tell me everything i want to know.
George

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Is no one with a VT-500 kit concerned about having 350cc injectors, because you all do? I'm still not convinced that the new ones I'm receiving will be enough. Unfortunately, i have no way currently to log injector duty cycle , so I'll be stuck with AFR monitoring only which certainly doesn't tell me everything i want to know.
George

not really no.... my AFR pegs 11.5 at redline/WOT, the car performs well, no limps, no thing really my kit has been reliable from day one apart from some install difficulties.... i definitely wont lose sleep over injector choice, it works really....

is it ideal?? no..... and maybe in the future i'll loose into swapping these out, i was told this is the injector used for the v10 m5....

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Beedub

not really no.... my AFR pegs 11.5 at redline/WOT, the car performs well, no limps, no thing really my kit has been reliable from day one apart from some install difficulties.... i definitely wont lose sleep over injector choice, it works really....

is it ideal?? no..... and maybe in the future i'll loose into swapping these out, i was told this is the injector used for the v10 m5....

It's the stock injector for a 200 hp Volkswagen GTI actually lol .

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

so I'll be stuck with AFR monitoring only which certainly doesn't tell me everything i want to know.
George

If you log fuel pressure (simple/cheap gauge/system) and afr, you probably know enough.
Logging the fuel pressure is also the best way to inform you about the dreaded undersized(?) fuel pump.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

It's the stock injector for a 200 hp Volkswagen GTI actually lol .

id love ess to come in here and explain their reasoning for doing this??? id HOPE their was logic behind it, hey are the professionals afterall....

however a few members have tuned and added boost to their stock vt2, and dont seem to have problem getting 465whp and mid 11 AFRs.... wonder if they use different injectors on the m3 kits??

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...aldwell&page=9

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Beedub

id love ess to come in here and explain their reasoning for doing this??? id HOPE their was logic behind it, hey are the professionals afterall....

however a few members have tuned and added boost to their stock vt2, and dont seem to have problem getting 465whp and mid 11 AFRs.... wonder if they use different injectors on the m3 kits??

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...aldwell&page=9

Having a smaller injector gives a better spray pattern at idle and low RPM's , making idle hunt etc easier to take care of . Most stock injectors on cars are at 85% duty cycle at redline . The problem is these are at 100 % duty cycle at WOT at 7k on the VT500 kit much less a VT -525 . With a 5 bar system you can get away with it but that doesn't make it a good choice IMHO. Throw in US gas 10% ethanol ( ethanol requires more volume than gas for the same energy ), and high flow headers and all of a sudden the injectors can't keep up .

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

If you log fuel pressure (simple/cheap gauge/system) and afr, you probably know enough.
Logging the fuel pressure is also the best way to inform you about the dreaded undersized(?) fuel pump.

We did check the fuel pressure , it was good, thus why I looked at the injectors . The Aeromotive 340 can provide more than enough fueling for this power level .

[Gt4]

You had the same problem when you had the vt1-445. Do you know if injectors were maxed out also? You had the same headers/exhaust configuration.

[nekky]

All of this has me worried... Time to pull off the fuel rail and confirm injector sizing. Has anyone spoken with ESS to see if a tune has been done in house for larger than 420cc injectors? In almost every other tuning application I've seen over the years, guys around this power level (400whp-500whp) are using anywhere from 550-750-ish cc injectors, both for safety and ease (I'm not a tuner, don't crucify me) of tuning. Any ideas?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by nekky

All of this has me worried... Time to pull off the fuel rail and confirm injector sizing.

There's a chance that the part numbers have been melted away with a soldering iron. A common trick among tuners for not revealing their secrets and somewhat protect their tuning.
I am a bit surprised that ESS didn't do that with this kit. Maybe as this is one of the first, they rushed things out.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by nekky

All of this has me worried... Time to pull off the fuel rail and confirm injector sizing. Has anyone spoken with ESS to see if a tune has been done in house for larger than 420cc injectors? In almost every other tuning application I've seen over the years, guys around this power level (400whp-500whp) are using anywhere from 550-750-ish cc injectors, both for safety and ease (I'm not a tuner, don't crucify me) of tuning. Any ideas?

Our fuel pressure being 5 bar is the reason we can run smaller injectors than other cars , but 350 is pushing it a bit much for 430whp+ .

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

There's a chance that the part numbers have been melted away with a soldering iron. A common trick among tuners for not revealing their secrets and somewhat protect their tuning.
I am a bit surprised that ESS didn't do that with this kit. Maybe as this is one of the first, they rushed things out.

Mine was probably the first VT-1 to VT 2-525 upgrade . I had the same injectors and headers on my VT-1 yes . The on track limp mode almost completely went away with my check valve on the VT-1 . It would only occur at WOT in 4th gear near redline very occasionally after the check valve . I dyno'd right at 400whp with good AFR's with my VT-1 , but on track could it have been a little too lean occasionally ? It's possible this was the issue after the check valve yes , especially since 100 octane prevented it in both cases .

[Gt4]

Do you know what injectors size are on the VT1-445?