ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   ZPOST > BMW Z4 Technical Talk > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications
  TireRack

SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-02-2022, 02:03 AM   #1
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

CSL Camshafts

What are the official technical differences between oem and csl camshafts (intake and exhaust)?

Is there a primary source that shares the definitive difference? Searching on Google has given a variety of dissimilar answers.
Appreciate 0
      11-02-2022, 03:57 AM   #2
Westersund
Captain
Westersund's Avatar
Sweden
478
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hallstahammar

iTrader: (1)

https://www.hackengineering.co.uk/pr...camshafts-s54/

I haven't found anything relieable but if I would guess the standard duration would be around 272/264 with a 12 mm lift. The BMW S54B32 training module says 12 mm lift on both cams, doesn't say anything about duration.

https://www.billswebspace.com/MS54B32TrainingModule.pdf
__________________
BMW M2 LCI -18 | BMW 520DA Touring M-Sport -12
| BMW Z4 M Coupe -06 | BMW M3 -02 | BMW Z3 Coupe -99 | BMW 740i/6 -96 | BMW M5 3.8 -92 | BMW M535i -87

Last edited by Westersund; 11-02-2022 at 04:25 AM..
Appreciate 0
      11-02-2022, 10:14 AM   #3
MOTK
Enlisted Member
41
Rep
45
Posts

Drives: Z4MC
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: United Kingdom

iTrader: (0)

They are only slightly hotter than the standard 260/260 cams at 268/264. Lift is the same as the standard M3.
https://max.book118.com/html/2013/0506/3759578.shtm

Last edited by MOTK; 11-02-2022 at 10:38 AM..
Appreciate 0
      11-02-2022, 10:25 AM   #4
Steeler
Colonel
Steeler's Avatar
2422
Rep
2,697
Posts

Drives: Built not Bought 04 Z4 VF
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kitchener Ontario Canada

iTrader: (2)

Not definitive but a bit more info maybe.

http://www.catcams.com/engines/camshaft-setup.aspx
__________________
W2A Intercooled Vortech V3Si, custom ducting, Alpha N, 60# Bosch,2.62 pulley, multi port WMI, Severn Tuning(pokeybritches), Tial, magnaflow,SS race muffler, 42 design,3.91LSD, H&R, Hotchkis,ST coils,Konis, Megan camber arms, AKG SS, Nylon mounts, Poly bushings, Carbon interior, CF Aero.APEX
Appreciate 0
      11-02-2022, 07:16 PM   #5
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTK View Post
They are only slightly hotter than the standard 260/260 cams at 268/264. Lift is the same as the standard M3.
https://max.book118.com/html/2013/0506/3759578.shtm
I'm having trouble loading this link. Can you attach?
Appreciate 0
      11-03-2022, 04:06 AM   #6
Westersund
Captain
Westersund's Avatar
Sweden
478
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hallstahammar

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTK View Post
They are only slightly hotter than the standard 260/260 cams at 268/264. Lift is the same as the standard M3.
https://max.book118.com/html/2013/0506/3759578.shtm
I can't read mandarin.

And are you sure? Most sites say that the Schrick 280/272 duration cams with 12,5 mm lift is very close to the CSL cams.
__________________
BMW M2 LCI -18 | BMW 520DA Touring M-Sport -12
| BMW Z4 M Coupe -06 | BMW M3 -02 | BMW Z3 Coupe -99 | BMW 740i/6 -96 | BMW M5 3.8 -92 | BMW M535i -87
Appreciate 0
      11-03-2022, 04:08 AM   #7
Westersund
Captain
Westersund's Avatar
Sweden
478
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hallstahammar

iTrader: (1)

Here's the Cat Cams specs, as they produce cams I'm guessing they have measured the stock cam.

__________________
BMW M2 LCI -18 | BMW 520DA Touring M-Sport -12
| BMW Z4 M Coupe -06 | BMW M3 -02 | BMW Z3 Coupe -99 | BMW 740i/6 -96 | BMW M5 3.8 -92 | BMW M535i -87
Appreciate 0
      11-03-2022, 06:29 AM   #8
MOTK
Enlisted Member
41
Rep
45
Posts

Drives: Z4MC
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: United Kingdom

iTrader: (0)

Cat Cams confirm CSL is 268/264. I have also seen these same durations from a well respected tuner, so I'm pretty sure they're right.

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1596385

"Additionally, I'd like to also offer the OE CSL Camshafts for those that want to keep things factory BMW and for cool factor, as well as OE CSL Exhaust Valves, and OE BMW (Non-Coated) Followers. For those with CSL airboxes, the CSL Cams should keep things simpler as you could run the base CSL tune file without worrying about adjusting for cam values. Please note that these cams do not count toward the 21+ orders needed for the Cat-Cams Group-Buy. There is no minimum order for these OE BMW CSL parts.

OE BMW CSL Camshafts (268/264): Pricing to come shortly
*for reference, the stock M3 camshafts are 260/260."
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2022, 04:22 AM   #9
Westersund
Captain
Westersund's Avatar
Sweden
478
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hallstahammar

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTK View Post
Cat Cams confirm CSL is 268/264. I have also seen these same durations from a well respected tuner, so I'm pretty sure they're right.

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1596385

"Additionally, I'd like to also offer the OE CSL Camshafts for those that want to keep things factory BMW and for cool factor, as well as OE CSL Exhaust Valves, and OE BMW (Non-Coated) Followers. For those with CSL airboxes, the CSL Cams should keep things simpler as you could run the base CSL tune file without worrying about adjusting for cam values. Please note that these cams do not count toward the 21+ orders needed for the Cat-Cams Group-Buy. There is no minimum order for these OE BMW CSL parts.

OE BMW CSL Camshafts (268/264): Pricing to come shortly
*for reference, the stock M3 camshafts are 260/260."
Does that guy work for Cat Cams? Because Cat Cams clearly specify 269/270 for the stock cams on their website, they don't even have cam specs for the CSL. That "Dr M3an M3" guy is using the same source of information for the OEM specs as you linked to.
__________________
BMW M2 LCI -18 | BMW 520DA Touring M-Sport -12
| BMW Z4 M Coupe -06 | BMW M3 -02 | BMW Z3 Coupe -99 | BMW 740i/6 -96 | BMW M5 3.8 -92 | BMW M535i -87
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2022, 08:03 AM   #10
grannyknot
Captain
grannyknot's Avatar
945
Rep
766
Posts

Drives: 2008 Z4M coupe
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

I have been looking for information on a set of 280*/272* cams for my engine but can't find anything on what to expect for potential power gains for the swap.
Anyone?
Thanks
__________________
2008 E86 M coupe
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2022, 08:04 AM   #11
maupineda
Captain
United_States
447
Rep
964
Posts

Drives: E86 Z4MC
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Detroit, MI

iTrader: (3)

There are a few posts here and at M3cutters. Sounds the gains are around 15-20 crank HP.
Appreciate 1
      11-06-2022, 01:45 AM   #12
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTK View Post
Cat Cams confirm CSL is 268/264. I have also seen these same durations from a well respected tuner, so I'm pretty sure they're right.

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1596385

"Additionally, I'd like to also offer the OE CSL Camshafts for those that want to keep things factory BMW and for cool factor, as well as OE CSL Exhaust Valves, and OE BMW (Non-Coated) Followers. For those with CSL airboxes, the CSL Cams should keep things simpler as you could run the base CSL tune file without worrying about adjusting for cam values. Please note that these cams do not count toward the 21+ orders needed for the Cat-Cams Group-Buy. There is no minimum order for these OE BMW CSL parts.

OE BMW CSL Camshafts (268/264): Pricing to come shortly
*for reference, the stock M3 camshafts are 260/260."
Thanks. This after sales document is probably as good as it'll get as far as primary sources go. It's interesting that the stock cams have symmetric profiles, but csl and aftermarket cams are asymmetrical.

I have a set on order. I plan on coupling them with the csl exhaust valves and either csl headers or ssv1.
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2022, 02:15 AM   #13
Vanne
Down Under!!
Vanne's Avatar
United Arab Emirates
1592
Rep
4,293
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Dubai

iTrader: (4)

i doubt youll notice the difference at 280/272..

iam at 288/280, at 12.75, and yeah its a bit more lively, but not worth the outlay.

if i had the choice again, i would have gone for 296/288 @ 13mm lift.. a bit more involved, but worthwhile.
__________________
2007 EuroSpec Z4///MC - Building/Developing Z4 GT3
Powered by
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2022, 04:39 AM   #14
MOTK
Enlisted Member
41
Rep
45
Posts

Drives: Z4MC
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: United Kingdom

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westersund View Post
Does that guy work for Cat Cams?
Yep fair point!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westersund View Post
Does that guy work for Cat Cams?/QUOTE]
Because Cat Cams clearly specify 269/270 for the stock cams on their website, they don't even have cam specs for the CSL. That "Dr M3an M3" guy is using the same source of information for the OEM specs as you linked to.
As you say there is little official info out there, that doc linked does seem to be fairly legit?
I have found quite a few references to the standard s54b32 having 260/260, unfortunately the source link always used for that is now dead
I'm not convinced the Catcam info is correct, aside from the duration data they state the lash ramp of the oem cam is 0.25 intake and exhaust, but TIS will state to lash it to 0.18-0.23 intake and 0.28-0.33 exhaust? I lash my schrick cams at 0.25 both intake and exhaust as that's what they specify.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2022, 05:13 AM   #15
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanne View Post
i doubt youll notice the difference at 280/272..

iam at 288/280, at 12.75, and yeah its a bit more lively, but not worth the outlay.

if i had the choice again, i would have gone for 296/288 @ 13mm lift.. a bit more involved, but worthwhile.
Less interested in outright power than oem+ reliability. There isn't even consensus on the internet on whether dlc rockers keep their coating beyond an initial couple hundred kilometers. If not, end users are paying extra just to induce wear on their newly purchased camshafts (given the more aggressive ramp angles). Especially given oil that is famously thick before coming up to temp. I'm as of yet undecided if I'll buy dlc rockers or not.

For some, the extra trade off for power is worth it. For me, it isn't (and is also why I'm getting the csl exhaust valves to go along with these cams - their reduced weight should directionally reduce friction as an offset to the higher ramp angle).
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2022, 10:12 AM   #16
Westersund
Captain
Westersund's Avatar
Sweden
478
Rep
859
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hallstahammar

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTK View Post
Yep fair point!

As you say there is little official info out there, that doc linked does seem to be fairly legit?
I have found quite a few references to the standard s54b32 having 260/260, unfortunately the source link always used for that is now dead
I'm not convinced the Catcam info is correct, aside from the duration data they state the lash ramp of the oem cam is 0.25 intake and exhaust, but TIS will state to lash it to 0.18-0.23 intake and 0.28-0.33 exhaust? I lash my schrick cams at 0.25 both intake and exhaust as that's what they specify.
I agree with you, there's not enough reliable info online. I'll ask a friend to talk to Köhler Racing here in Sweden. Köhler have been building BMW engines for over 30 years.

I general what I don't like is all the conflicting info, most online stores state that the 280/272 Schrick cams are close to the CSL specs.
__________________
BMW M2 LCI -18 | BMW 520DA Touring M-Sport -12
| BMW Z4 M Coupe -06 | BMW M3 -02 | BMW Z3 Coupe -99 | BMW 740i/6 -96 | BMW M5 3.8 -92 | BMW M535i -87
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2022, 02:13 AM   #17
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westersund View Post
I agree with you, there's not enough reliable info online. I'll ask a friend to talk to Köhler Racing here in Sweden. Köhler have been building BMW engines for over 30 years.

I general what I don't like is all the conflicting info, most online stores state that the 280/272 Schrick cams are close to the CSL specs.
Agree about the frustration with all the conflicting information. It feels like most sources just repeat info as shared from other sources, without any particular firsthand technical insight /references. Given the exclusivity and overall allure of the CSL, seems like the product references are more than anything just marketing.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2022, 04:39 PM   #18
grannyknot
Captain
grannyknot's Avatar
945
Rep
766
Posts

Drives: 2008 Z4M coupe
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

I've been scrolling goggle to find some solid info on the stock vs CSL cams in the S54.
I found this here in the archives, post #18 to #21
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1655893
__________________
2008 E86 M coupe
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2022, 06:09 PM   #19
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannyknot View Post
I've been scrolling goggle to find some solid info on the stock vs CSL cams in the S54.
I found this here in the archives, post #18 to #21
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1655893
Interesting reference claiming that the camshaft spec information would be housed in the csl software itself? Not sure why that would be.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2022, 07:39 PM   #20
grannyknot
Captain
grannyknot's Avatar
945
Rep
766
Posts

Drives: 2008 Z4M coupe
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

I have my engine apart at the moment, calling around to see if I can find a shop with a Cam Doctor, that would at least tell us what stock is.
__________________
2008 E86 M coupe
Appreciate 1
      11-13-2022, 10:15 AM   #21
grannyknot
Captain
grannyknot's Avatar
945
Rep
766
Posts

Drives: 2008 Z4M coupe
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

Found this today, I believe it is a BMW publication.
http://sawashie.free.fr/M3/TorqueSpe...SPECS%20LR.pdf
Attached Images
 
__________________
2008 E86 M coupe
Appreciate 1
      11-13-2022, 11:49 AM   #22
E86Z4MC
Private
48
Rep
72
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Interesting that this link claims oem to be 264/264 vs the more widely believed 260/260.

If a shop is able to measure an oem camshaft, that may serve as a source of validation for the csl specs
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:14 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST