Z4M Supercharged Engine and Transmission Build

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Man my biggest piece of advice is aftermarket isn't always better . What's your plan with this car ? If your going to drive it in the street and the motor has been well maintained I'd just change the rod bearings , install a catch can for adequate crankcase ventilation, add a supercharger and call it a day motor wise . Tuning on the Z4M is not as simple as the E46M3 , it's not even close and many people have had trouble with the out of the box tuning in VF kits . To take their most aggressive kit , AND throw a stroker AND cams into the mix is a 99% failure mode . It will take months and months and 1000's of dollars to get that sorted .
Doing cams on a FI motor is a waste . If you want a stroker , I'd suggest just doing a stroker and keep it NA . Just replace the faulty ancillary clutch parts with OEM . The Sachs racing clutch has been fantastic , I highly rec that . If you have a failure down the line like I did after 30k supercharged miles (15k on track )
, then you rebuild it with forged parts . Just my two cents .
George

George, could you expand on this statement.
What research has bought you to this conclusion
My reason for asking is I am looking to cam my FI non M this winter with "specifically ground for FI" cams. Combined with a TTFS tune.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by dbarton62

George, could you expand on this statement.
What research has bought you to this conclusion
My reason for asking is I am looking to cam my FI non M this winter with "specifically ground for FI" cams. Combined with a TTFS tune.

Yes with specific custom tuning you can make power with aggressive cams but cost to hp ratio is very poor FI and the tuning is complex . If your willing to put the time in to have several revisions etc and are ok with the high cost of forged custom cams then go ahead .

[Steeler]

OK so nothing specific.
I am still talking to the tuner about the cams and the hp increases vs cost outlay.
From my initial research I am seeing possible gains of 30-40 hp.
Cost wise the cams themselves can be had for less than 1k for the pair with installation on top of that. So ballparking all in less than 2500 for 30-40hp seems like a reasonable ROI.
This is on a non M don't forget.
Not sure what an M would cost to do the same.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Cortes2141

Thank's for the timely response and the advice. My plan is to track the car. That's very unfortunate about the tuning issues with VF, is ESS having any better luck with the extensive tunes like FI with stroker and/or increased psi with cylinder sleeves? My goal was some where around 550-600whp and an engine that can maintain consistently higher rpms. I saw some videos where HPF built a 1000hp daily driver s54! How is it that he E46 is capable but ours cant?!

Aftermarket ECU options for the E46 M3 don't exist for our cars , its a totally different harness . What level driver are you ? The build you are describing will be 100% non reliable on track , not to mention that's wayyyyyyy more power than this chassis can handle on track . No kit or tune from a company is track ready out of the box period !!! I've made tons of changes to my original ESS kit to make my car reliable and thermally stable on track for 30 min sessions on track with 430-450whp . I'm a pretty decent driver now (usually I am the fastest car in the advanced group ) and still can't use all of the power I have now in the corners . ESS has made several revisions to the kit based partly on my feedback , larger injectors , altered tune ,
Different supercharger bracket etc . They have the best kit tune/ hardware out of the box in my opinion , but for track use it needs an even larger oil cooler ( I have a 34 row Setrab ) and larger radiator . I would overheat in 1 hot lap with the power levels you are discussing at my pace . No one has a track reliable out of the box set up for 500 + whp and given my knowledge of what's available for our platform you will have a hard time creating one period . If your willing to deal in all custom fabrication , race team level ducting for multiple coolers , removal of AC core ( it's huge on the Z and restricts clean airflow to the radiator ) and multiple months of tuning , testing , retuning , money , more money and then a shit ton of money then it's possible. I can tell you what works on my car but for what your asking getting the engine built is just the beginning . Even when you get the motor and tuning sorted , the drivetrain , diff , suspension , brakes will all need tons of work to handle that power on track .
Sorry to be negative , I just don't want to see you go through what's to come without some perspective unless you really really want to .
George

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by dbarton62

OK so nothing specific.
I am still talking to the tuner about the cams and the hp increases vs cost outlay.
From my initial research I am seeing possible gains of 30-40 hp.
Cost wise the cams themselves can be had for less than 1k for the pair with installation on top of that. So ballparking all in less than 2500 for 30-40hp seems like a reasonable ROI.
This is on a non M don't forget.
Not sure what an M would cost to do the same.

Results from Cams vary car to car , we know with proper tuning in the M54 and S54 it responds well to cams . Just need to make sure you have someone who can truly custom tune the ECU . My point is it's easier to just run more boost for that 30whp when you are FI vs doing an engine build . New S54 forged cams are def more expensive but if your good with that hp/ cost ratio that's cool .

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Results from Cams vary car to car , we know with proper tuning in the M54 and S54 it responds well to cams . Just need to make sure you have someone who can truly custom tune the ECU . My point is it's easier to just run more boost for that 30whp when you are FI vs doing an engine build . New S54 forged cams are def more expensive but if your good with that hp/ cost ratio that's cool .

Thanks George, at the point I am at, upping the boost would require internal engine work to be done that would likely not be cost effective.

[Cortes2141]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Aftermarket ECU options for the E46 M3 don't exist for our cars , its a totally different harness . What level driver are you ? The build you are describing will be 100% non reliable on track , not to mention that's wayyyyyyy more power than this chassis can handle on track . No kit or tune from a company is track ready out of the box period !!! I've made tons of changes to my original ESS kit to make my car reliable and thermally stable on track for 30 min sessions on track with 430-450whp . I'm a pretty decent driver now (usually I am the fastest car in the advanced group ) and still can't use all of the power I have now in the corners . ESS has made several revisions to the kit based partly on my feedback , larger injectors , altered tune ,
Different supercharger bracket etc . They have the best kit tune/ hardware out of the box in my opinion , but for track use it needs an even larger oil cooler ( I have a 34 row Setrab ) and larger radiator . I would overheat in 1 hot lap with the power levels you are discussing at my pace . No one has a track reliable out of the box set up for 500 + whp and given my knowledge of what's available for our platform you will have a hard time creating one period . If your willing to deal in all custom fabrication , race team level ducting for multiple coolers , removal of AC core ( it's huge on the Z and restricts clean airflow to the radiator ) and multiple months of tuning , testing , retuning , money , more money and then a shit ton of money then it's possible. I can tell you what works on my car but for what your asking getting the engine built is just the beginning . Even when you get the motor and tuning sorted , the drivetrain , diff , suspension , brakes will all need tons of work to handle that power on track .
Sorry to be negative , I just don't want to see you go through what's to come without some perspective unless you really really want to .
George

No dude, you are not being negative! This is exactly why I sought your advise. I don't want to waste time/money on this project. As far as your question of what kind of driver am I, I am not exactly sure what you're asking...but the car will be primarily street driven with track a few tracks days a month or so...sounds like maybe I should just do a headers/full exhaust, SC w/ tune and call it a day....or maybe trade it in on a new M4?

[Westersund]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Results from Cams vary car to car , we know with proper tuning in the M54 and S54 it responds well to cams . Just need to make sure you have someone who can truly custom tune the ECU . My point is it's easier to just run more boost for that 30whp when you are FI vs doing an engine build . New S54 forged cams are def more expensive but if your good with that hp/ cost ratio that's cool .

It's pretty common to use 2 non-vanos intake cams on the M50's when they are boosted, because of longer duration (240) and higher lifts (9,7 mm). At least here in Sweden.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Cortes2141

No dude, you are not being negative! This is exactly why I sought your advise. I don't want to waste time/money on this project. As far as your question of what kind of driver am I, I am not exactly sure what you're asking...but the car will be primarily street driven with track a few tracks days a month or so...sounds like maybe I should just do a headers/full exhaust, SC w/ tune and call it a day....or maybe trade it in on a new M4?

Dude def don't trade it in for an M4 , the Z is a much much more enjoyable chassis to drive !

[Cortes2141]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Dude def don't trade it in for an M4 , the Z is a much much more enjoyable chassis to drive !

Haha, yah I imagine it probably is! I haven't driven a new M4 though...Well I appreciate your advise and I will keep you posted as I slowly make these upgrades!