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      09-06-2015, 06:32 PM   #23
GuidoK
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
if I'm paying someone else who I hope does?
FTFY
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      09-07-2015, 01:09 AM   #24
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FTFY
Keeping thinking that, with such a narrow mindset, nothing would get done.
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      09-07-2015, 04:02 AM   #25
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right...
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      09-07-2015, 10:49 AM   #26
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right...
I know.
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      09-07-2015, 11:30 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Keeping thinking that, with such a narrow mindset, nothing would get done.
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
right...
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
I know.
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      09-07-2015, 02:10 PM   #28
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This is not a catfight, but it's probably pointless to argue if the guy doesnt even know what the nitride process is or does, and to what depth it goes.

As I said you can regrind everything, and a regrinder will put everyting in it's bench (I mean you pay him...), but when you go through that (very very thin) layer, the wear qualities completely diminish. So you only have about 0,4mm to play with. That is if the cam didn't require grinding after the initial nitriding (nitriding is a hot process, so there is always risk of distortion. Most parts go in oversize and are reworked slightly after nitriding to dial out the heat distortion)

Sure it can be done, but regrinding is a cheapskate process with unpredictable riscs. That's why it's hardly done in professional applications where money is less of an object. (with professional applications I mean industrial engines where the cam cost more than a complete car). Its almost exclusively done in the hobby tuner car market where 500 bucks is a 'good save'.

Its fine when your car only sits in the garage, but not if you want any miles out of it (especially at high revs, like on a track).
But hey, everyone can do to his car what he wants....
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      09-07-2015, 02:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
This is not a catfight, but it's probably pointless to argue if the guy doesnt even know what the nitride process is or does, and to what depth it goes.

As I said you can regrind everything, and a regrinder will put everyting in it's bench (I mean you pay him...), but when you go through that (very very thin) layer, the wear qualities completely diminish. So you only have about 0,4mm to play with. That is if the cam didn't require grinding after the initial nitriding (nitriding is a hot process, so there is always risk of distortion. Most parts go in oversize and are reworked slightly after nitriding to dial out the heat distortion)

Sure it can be done, but regrinding is a cheapskate process with unpredictable riscs. That's why it's hardly done in professional applications where money is less of an object. (with professional applications I mean industrial engines where the cam cost more than a complete car). Its almost exclusively done in the hobby tuner car market where 500 bucks is a 'good save'.

Its fine when your car only sits in the garage, but not if you want any miles out of it (especially at high revs, like on a track).
But hey, everyone can do to his car what he wants....
You're right, it's not a fight.

We have one guy who believes he's somehow correct because he thinks he knows the alloy composition of the camshafts, has no experience with reground cams and generally talks out of his ass - and then there is me, a guy who will pay people who actually have experience in this area and have done the same process on hundreds of thousands of cars.

What, do you have a monopoly on metallurgy, do you have a masters in mechanical engineering and utilize engine modeling software as your day job? No? Probably time to sit down, shut up and let people do their job.
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      09-07-2015, 02:51 PM   #30
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Oh and a follow up, BMW cams are not of a "different construction" compared to other cams. If you believe so, I'd like you to source where you found that information.
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      09-07-2015, 03:06 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Oh and a follow up, BMW cams are not of a "different construction" compared to other cams. If you believe so, I'd like you to source where you found that information.
I did not write that bmw cams are of a different construction, I wrote that the N52 cams are of different constructon. Apparently reading is not your strong point.
The n52 cam consists of some kind of steel blow mold (or flow formed) inner core that clamps outer cam lobes.
Show me another cam that is made that way. Do you know how a 'normal' cam is made? Oh no wait, any in depth technical question I asked, you werent able to answer (or understand...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post

What, do you have a monopoly on metallurgy, do you have a masters in mechanical engineering and utilize engine modeling software as your day job? No? Probably time to sit down, shut up and let people do their job.
Yes I'm an industrial engineer who has a company in surface technology, and have a lot of customers who come to me with problems on nitrided products. This falls well within in my expertise.
Even the occasional cam (not tiny car cams but rather large Wärtsila cams etc)
So maybe I shouldn't shut up? Maybe me telling you about the case depth of the nitriding process should have given you clues?
Or maybe you were too stupid to pick up on those clues...that would be in line with the rest of what you wrote...

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      09-07-2015, 03:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I did not write that bmw cams are of a different construction, I wrote that the N52 cams are of different constructon.
So BMW didn't make the N52? Wow, that's news to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Apparently reading is not your strong point.
The irony is strong here. You do know what Irony is, don't you?
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
The n52 cam consists of some kind of steel blow mold (or flow formed) inner core that clamps outer cam lobes.
Show me another cam that is made that way. Do you know how a 'normal' cam is made? Oh no wait, any in depth technical question I asked, you were able to answer (or understand...)
I asked you for a source, and you have yet to produce one. I have the BMW N52 technical document (where you pulled that from) and I'm sure it doesn't state "some kind of steel" as the materials for the camshaft. The funny part is, I've probably spent more times around camshafts and engines than you have, and none of this was ever relevent.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Yes I'm an industrial engineer who has a company in surface technology, and have a lot of customers who come to me with problems on nitrided products. This falls well within in my expertise.
Sounds like your terrible at your job; how many of your customers are in the automotive field, how many of your customers have relayed to you - a common grunt- the intricacies of camshaft regrinding (especially since some regrinds don't effect the base circle, while some do)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Even the occasional cam (not tiny car cams but rather large Wärtsila cams etc)
So maybe I shouldn't shut up?
You probably should:
1. How is this relevant to reground cams, when what you are working on isn't contracted out to you (IE N52 camshafts)
2. Your field doesn't work with consumer automobiles at all.

It's ok, I'll wait for a what you assume will be a whitty retort while you fumble around trying to figure out how the regrinding process works. Here is one company I had corpsondence with back in the day when I had cams on my car

http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/cam_corner.html
(who have the camshafts reground by http://www.coltcams.com/..but I'm sure you've never heard of them)

And what is that while the process they use (parkerizing) "isn't as good" as the nitrating process, you CAN (and some people chose to) have that applied after the fact. Many Nissan guys choose to treat their internals with Nissan's DLC, and I could too...if I cared
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECH...RVIEW/dlc.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Maybe me telling you about the case depth of the nitriding process should have given you clues?
Or maybe you were too stupid to pick up on those clues...that would be in line with the rest of what you wrote...
Right, I'm the dumb one, but you didn't

1. know shit about regrinds.
2. Know shit about the N52

You can try to swing your dick around some more, but it's obvious you've never actually had any experience in this area. So tell me more about industrial diesel engines and how even though the metallurgical composition, the use and the stresses are completely different - is relevant.

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      09-07-2015, 04:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
So BMW didn't make the N52? Wow, that's news to me.
A different construction is not the same as a different manufacturer.
Quote:
The irony is strong here. You do know what Irony is, don't you?
Yes the irony is strong indeed...

Quote:
I asked you for a source, and you have yet to produce one. I have the BMW N52 technical document (where you pulled that from) and I'm sure it doesn't state "some kind of steel" as the materials for the camshaft. The funny part is, I've probably spent more times around camshafts and engines than you have, and none of this was ever relevent.
I've told you how the cam is of a different construction than a normal cam.
Some form of flowforming, I think bmw calls it hydroforming or something like that. You get a hollow steel tube with protrusions on which the hardened steel lobes are clamped. A normal cam is grinded from a cast core or in aftermarket applications sometimes a billet core.
But I'm calling your bluf: from what type of steel is the inner core of the n52 camshaft constructed, what type of steel is used for the lobes of the n52 camshaft and what hardening process is used?


Quote:
Sounds like your terrible at your job; how many of your customers are in the automotive field, how many of your customers have relayed to you - a common grunt- the intricacies of camshaft regrinding (especially since some regrinds don't effect the base circle, while some do)
Yes I'm terrible at my job and lost all my customers...
Why would you say that, you don't know anything about me or my company


btw lol at parkerizing. That is a very simple&cheap process of phosphating. (Manganese Phosphate).... Nice for your gun.... but there is a reason that real cam manufacturers like Schrick and Cat dont use this process
Very cheap and has been around for ages (at least 200 years..).
It has no real depth too..
This is not a process that will give extra lenght at a cam. It might be useful for persons who install cams but dont use good lubrication at first startup. But as it has an etching effect, the surface structure once that layer has worn away (it's only a few microns thick) might not be as good as a grind surface. Also it might effect the original nitrided steel.
You use it on guns for adding corrosion protection compared to normal steel as it is a little bit semi porous and can hold a minute layer of oil or parrafine wax. Those blackened industrial bolts have the same treatment. But to use that on a camshaft...I dont see any benefit.


Nissan's DLC is however a good process (a very good process). But I think that is an arc spray process (plasma spray)?. I don't know for sure how that is applied.
Ford uses that too (DLC is an amorphous carbon layer), and I think the new bmw M3 engine is also partly threated by that (although the actual media may differ). But I havent seen that used on camshafts. Mostly on cilinder parts (piston pens and such?) and maybe cam followers and such parts. As an alternative for chrome nitride or titanium nitride coating.




Quote:
You can try to swing your dick around some more,
Please leave my dick out of it
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Last edited by GuidoK; 09-07-2015 at 04:58 PM..
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