Z4MC vs Cayman S

[Gladius]

I have a decision in front of me.
I recently sold my 08 E90 M3. Fantastic car. It was my daily driver as well as serving track duty a few times a year. The only "real" mod on it was the exhaust. I now have a separate car for daily use. Before the E90 I had an E46 M3.

I'll soon be in a position to pick up a non-DD car, for track use, weekend fun, and the occasional drive to work. I want something smaller than the E90. I want a more traditional "sports car."

I'm considering a Z4MC, as well as a used Cayman S. I've also thought about an Exige, but that might be a bit too harsh and spartan for weekend use.

So a couple of questions:
1) Are there cars other than these three that I should consider? I don't plan to turn it into a racecar, and still want some creature comforts.
2) Knowing that this is a Z4 forum, why should I get a Z4M over other options? Obviously I know what to expect from the engine, coming from the E46 M3.
3) Has anyone driven both a Cayman and a Z4M? I haven't found a Cayman that I could test drive yet this winter, obviously it will be one of the first things to do to help make my decision. Am I going to be disappointed in the power of either car, having just come out of an E90 M3 (I'm at altitude, so I'm already losing power in an NA car).

Choices!

[esqu1re]

Hah. Finnegan should provide some nice input---he's owned all three cars. You might also want to do a search for Finnegan's reviews of all three cars.

[Gladius]

Thanks. Just found this:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444077
I'd definitely be looking for an '09 or later Cayman S.

[Z4MLover2012]

I was about to link to that as well. It's a great piece. I think you know what I would tell you to buy, but I like both cars. I think the Z4M is just more raw on the power delivery. Just my two cents. Good Luck in your decision making!

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by esqu1re

Hah. Finnegan should provide some nice input---he's owned all three cars. You might also want to do a search for Finnegan's reviews of all three cars.

Yep. And not planning on swapping cars again unless I have too.

Originally Posted by Gladius

Thanks. Just found this:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444077
I'd definitely be looking for an '09 or later Cayman S.

Yes, that's point to consider and a wise conclusion. The Cayman with adaptive suspension is going to be the best riding car for a DD, followed by the Z4M, followed by the Exige.

But the main thing to consider with Porsche is that they will void your warranty for track use. Any track use. (Never mind they encourage folks to do this by bringing the Cayman out to the track.)

And I think we can say that track use is always a pay to play risk with any car that's taken to the track. But it goes further than that--Porsche stinks when it comes to warranties and standing behind their products (IMS, oil starvation, RMS, etc. etc.).

Take a look over on Planet-9--Porsche does not stand behind their products and has denied warranty claims even for cars that have not tracked or abused. Based on the consistency of their actions, I'd consider the warranty on a new car, CPO car, or one still under original warranty to be a worthless piece of paper.

Also take a look at the Cayman 09+ DFI engines--IIRC there are quite a few with oil consumption issues. It looks like the engine redesign did not fix all the issues.

I'd look at an Z4M or the Exige.

Also, look at Billswebspace. Bill was a former Z4M owner who bought an Elise. Not an exact match to the Exige, but might give a pretty good comparo, which you can find on this site to some degree here. Looks like there are oiling issues and etc. with the Elise too, but IIRC those can be worked around.

[850tgul]

Having owned a Z4MC for the past year and a half and driven a couple of Cayman S', I think the MC has a more exciting engine and it is more raw in it's overall character as others have said. I think the Cayman has better steering and a more precise chassis. Looks wise, MC is more masculine and brawny. It's proportions are more classic coupe, long hood, etc. like a Shelby Daytona Coupe or other fastback coupes. To me the Cayman has a more femine look to it. I think on paper and according to a stopwatch, the Cayman is the superior car. For me, the MC was just more fun.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by 850tgul

Having owned a Z4MC for the past year and a half and driven a couple of Cayman S', I think the MC has a more exciting engine and it is more raw in it's overall character as others have said. I think the Cayman has better steering and a more precise chassis. Looks wise, MC is more masculine and brawny. It's proportions are more classic coupe, long hood, etc. like a Shelby Daytona Coupe or other fastback coupes. To me the Cayman has a more femine look to it. I think on paper and according to a stopwatch, the Cayman is the superior car. For me, the MC was just more fun.

Z4M beast a Gen I Cayman S 0 - 60 though IIRC. Around a technical track, the Cayman S is faster. In the real world though, it probably comes down to the driver.

[txz4]

i wouldnt consider any other car (short of gt3rs territory) and every reason why, i cant put into words. Just drive it and you will understand completely. The feeling, the look, the sound. I wouldnt drive anything else.

[gtMc]

Originally Posted by 850tgul

Having owned a Z4MC for the past year and a half and driven a couple of Cayman S', I think the MC has a more exciting engine and it is more raw in it's overall character as others have said. I think the Cayman has better steering and a more precise chassis. Looks wise, MC is more masculine and brawny. It's proportions are more classic coupe, long hood, etc. like a Shelby Daytona Coupe or other fastback coupes. To me the Cayman has a more femine look to it. I think on paper and according to a stopwatch, the Cayman is the superior car. For me, the MC was just more fun.

+1, very well said. Having also driven all 3, I too decided on the z4mc. And Finn breaks it down even better in his thread comparos. Its scary the way he says porsche doesn't support the product.

[KevinM]

Well, as you said, this is a Z4 forum...

I can't say it better that the thread Finnegan posted earlier, but I did test the Cayman S extensively and almost bought one instead of the M coupe. I had a new Z4M coupe in 2007. When the dealer wrecked it in 2010 (!), I had some time to think as I couldn't immediately replace it with another M coupe, as of course they were no longer being made. And in fact, they were/are hard to find...unlike, for example, Cayman Ss, of which there were 8 within 100 miles of me. So off I went. First impressions were very good indeed. Smooth engine, tactile steering, smooth shifting, a smoother ride than the Z4M and much more neutral handling. And, it was very tempting to be able to buy one now and not have to continue with my nation-wide search for the perfect Z4M coupe. But...there was just something missing. Maybe it was that the Z4M coupe seems much more special: they are so rare I have never seen another coupe in my town, it looks much more exotic, it's hard to get into/out of compared to the Cayman...driving the coupe is always an event. Maybe it was that the M coupe is more powerful at similar or lower price. Maybe it is just that I am a BMW fan and love the sound and feel of the S54 engine. Who knows. I know I don't regret my choice to purchase another Z4M coupe. That said, hard to believe anyone would be seriously disappointed with either.

The only car that really almost derailed the M coupe purchase was a 2008 911 base Carrera. Wonderful car. However, I knew that if I ever wanted another pristine Z4M coupe I'd have to act now...and I decided that my 911 experience will be either a turbo or a GT3, and I wasn't looking for that kind of car this time around.

Have fun deciding!

[ZStig]

weekend only car? The best opinion will be your own, after you test drive all 3 cars.

If you're looking at $40k and below weekend cars, I'd also look at the esprit v8tt, and a 355

[Gladius]

Great feedback all, thanks. Of course I expected to get a lot of positive feedback on the Z, and since my last 3 cars have been BMWs, I'm definitely more comfortable and knowledgeable about them.

So let me ask some further info that helps me compare apples to something-more-like-an-apple:
How does the Z4M compare to an E46 M3? My E46 M3 was a 2001, and I know they made minor changes by the time the engine got into the Z4M, but should I be expecting similar performance in terms of acceleration (I know the handling is better in the Z)? I'm slightly worried that stepping out of the 414 HP E90 into anything less is going to feel underpowered, but I'm ready to give that up for something smaller/better handling. I know this car won't be an E90 M3, but I don't want to feel like I took 3 steps backward... (and don't you dare suggest I go get an E92 M3, my wife would laugh at me!)

[ZStig]

Well you always have the option of ess superchargers to match and beat the e90 m3 performance

[esqu1re]

The z4m, speed wise, is almost identical to the e46 M3. Blame the gearbox for that. Feel wise, z4m will probably feel faster, as it's a "harder" car.

And as long as handling does not mean grip or skidpad numbers, then I think the general consensus is that the z4m "handles" better--much more of a go cart feel. Replace the stock tires for something better, and you should be able to get better skidpad numbers as well.

You have to go drive one. I think it's one of those cars you'll either love right out the bat or hate, especially after having driven the last two m3s.

[Finnegan]

Having owned an E92, the Z4M doesn't "feel" slower.

In fact, it is slower, especially if your car had a DCT, but it doesn't feel that way. The Z4M is much more raw, more connected to the road, has less sound deadening, and is smaller. The result is that is feels very fast.

A distinct plus is that unlike the E92 M3, the Z4M feels fast/fun at lower speeds. I always felt the E9x M3 didn't feel fast until close to or at felony level speeds. The Z4M doesn't suffer from that.

As for your E46 M3 vs. the Z4M, the Z4M is, IIRC, about 200 lbs lighter and has a one hell of a lot stiffer chassis. Being over the rear wheels in the Z4M adds to the feeling of speed and connection to the road. It's a totally different experience.

The Exige is a raw/connected ride too. No way to know until you try them both.

[Gladius]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

A distinct plus is that unlike the E92 M3, the Z4M feels fast/fun at lower speeds. I always felt the E9x M3 didn't feel fast until close to or at felony level speeds. The Z4M doesn't suffer from that.

This. It's a ridiculous (in a good way) car but I just never feel like it is going fast . I guess blame the smoothness and sound deadening. It's one of the reasons I am opting for a "sports" car.

Originally Posted by Finnegan

No way to know until you try them both.

Yep, looks like I need to find one locally now!

[costa316]

Looks wise, you will never get the "ohh", "wow" "wtf is that" factor with the cayman. That's the one thing an M Coupe will always have in it's advantage. There has never been a production car out there that will give onlookers whiplash when it passes by.

[RandysV10]

Originally Posted by Gladius

Great feedback all, thanks. Of course I expected to get a lot of positive feedback on the Z, and since my last 3 cars have been BMWs, I'm definitely more comfortable and knowledgeable about them.

So let me ask some further info that helps me compare apples to something-more-like-an-apple:
How does the Z4M compare to an E46 M3? My E46 M3 was a 2001, and I know they made minor changes by the time the engine got into the Z4M, but should I be expecting similar performance in terms of acceleration (I know the handling is better in the Z)? I'm slightly worried that stepping out of the 414 HP E90 into anything less is going to feel underpowered, but I'm ready to give that up for something smaller/better handling. I know this car won't be an E90 M3, but I don't want to feel like I took 3 steps backward... (and don't you dare suggest I go get an E92 M3, my wife would laugh at me!)

It's not about how much horsepower, someone will always have more. It's about the feel of the car, the handling, the forgiveness on the track, and yes the raw power. Just had it out "again" on track today, wonder how the guy in the video in the e92 felt having to give a point by, or when I find the clip, the guy in the GT3RS having to give one as well. Not saying by any means the the Z4MC is faster than either car but mine is still pretty much bone stock and is tearing up the track.

[EenyBear]

There is one key (to me) element that has not been mentioned. "Acceleration off the line and low rpm grunt" vs "top speed and higher rpm punch". Forgive me as there are probably better ways to describe what I mean.

I drove both the Z4M and Cayman S before choosing. I drove them a lot. I also have experience with a 2009 Gallardo and 2011 458 Italia (not ownership, just extensive driving experience). This is relevant (to me) as I shall explain.

The Gallardo snaps your body right out of the gate with raw unbridled torque. That's what I wanted in a sports car. The Z4M has the same thrilling punch off the line. For me, it's all about acceleration, not top end. Obviously your priorities may differ.

In comparison, the Cayman S is like a junior version of the 458 Italia. Precise, comfortable, somewhat boring as you tool around town. Nothing happens until you wring it out. But when you do.... woo hooooo!

Just my humble opinion. Would I have been happy with a Cayman S? Of course. No way I could outdrive either car.

On a separate note... on very rare occasions I regret having only two seats. The 2+2 offered by the 911 series (as you noted) would be handy from time to time for family excursions where the SUV is overkill.

On another separate note... the Gallardo always gets the "neck snapping double takes". Once, during a sedate drive in the slow lane, I felt a shadow cross the car. Beside me, in the fast lane, was "hillbilly Bob" driving his pickup with his toes as he leaned out the passenger window to take a picture with his cell phone. Needless to say, his photo was probably blurred as I matted it and bid him "arrivederci". Loon.

The Italia is so exotic it's almost invisible. I had one fellow say he had to look at it three times to convince himself it wasn't an NSX or Mitsubishi for goodness sakes. What was he on, I wonder?

So... +1 on rare appearance and the "what year/make/model is your car?" for the Z4M and relative invisibility with the Cayman. Both have upside and your choice is yours, and yours alone, to make.

Have fun with your shopping.

PS - on a boring practical note: the Z4M appears bombproof and has caused me no grief. A buddy with a Cayman S cannot say the same - although, when it's on the road, the PDK in his is pretty sweet.

[ruscoupe]

Originally Posted by Gladius

How does the Z4M compare to an E46 M3? My E46 M3 was a 2001, and I know they made minor changes by the time the engine got into the Z4M, ..............

I don't own a Z4M, but I've driven a few. I too owned an early E46 M3 and the only major problem I recall was the rod bearing issue and the occasional horror stories with the oil pumps. IIRC, those were resolved while '01 model E46 M3's and '01 MZ3's were still rolling off the line, so yea the engine was pretty tight by the time the Z4M came around.

As far as Porsche's habit of denying culpability, there is some truth to that but I'm not sure how bad it really is nor do I know the whole truth with the issue of Porsche denying warranty work with tracked cars. As is usually the case, the complete truth is probably somewhere in between what the two sides (owners and Porsche) would tell you.

A couple of friends have P-cars, and they both occasionally participate in track events, and each have had issues addressed as warranty repairs IIRC. But I'll admit, I don't recall exactly what those issues were, save for one particular problem with the PDK in one of the guy's cars, which is an '09 S model. He didn't tell me about any problems with getting the repair done.

And you can't forget how BMW was denying warranty service on all those early S54 engine failures before things got nasty. Same for how a class action lawsuit had to be filed in California with the N54 engines in the '07 - '10models. I don't recall what the resolution to that was, only that there was an uproar of sorts about BMW upgrading (sometimes w/o the owners knowledge) the ECU software, which in turn seemed to have caused other problems.

IMHO, all manufacturer's are guilty of this type of thing. Don't even get me started with H-D. Some are just better at getting away with it than others.

Btw, just for the record, if someone were to steal my coupe right now I'd probably be moved to get into a Cayman S myself. Don't get me wrong, the Z4M is a nice car without question, but personally I'd like to have another P-car. Only this time, it would be with PDK. They've really done a helluva job with that now.

Rus

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by Gladius

3) Has anyone driven both a Cayman and a Z4M? I haven't found a Cayman that I could test drive yet this winter, obviously it will be one of the first things to do to help make my decision. Am I going to be disappointed in the power of either car, having just come out of an E90 M3 (I'm at altitude, so I'm already losing power in an NA car).

Choices!

I currently own a Z4 M Coupe and a 987 Boxster S. I don't think you'd be disappointed with either car, and it's really down to your preferences as far as how they do what they do. I give the edge to my M Coupe, as I like the engine note more, the power delivery of the S54, and the LSD makes a difference when powering out of a turn.

And before I bought the Z4MC, I tried the Cayman S and felt you didn't get as good value for your money with the Porsche. Owning the Boxster, and when shopping for one, I still had that feeling. Bluetooth and Aux-in were extra, when you'd be hard-pressed to find a Z4M without them, as most came with the Premium Package. Full power seats are rare, when manuals are tough to find on the Bimmer. Sport seats are the only option on the Z4, but pricey extras on the Boxster/Cayman (I've got the comfort seats).

I'm enjoying the Boxster, but I know I'll be keeping the Z4M for the long run.

It takes a nice picture, though

[flyzipper]

For what it's worth, I'm 198cm and I fit reasonably well in the Z4MC, but I didn't fit in a Cayman when I was shopping around.