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      06-10-2013, 07:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by seank
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeybritches View Post
How would it make a difference if the cooling system is maxed out? If it does what I think it does, which is open up at a lower temperature, then there won't be any benefit. The car is already well above the temperature at which it normally opens anyway.

I have heard of some cars running 100% water at the track, but I would have to look into it before recommending it to anyone.
That is a good question. On my track car, I run a 30 degree lower thermostat. That being said, it does take longer to warm up (twice as long). The car runs 20 degrees lower on a 100 degree day. I THINK the difference is that it opens more, to allow more water to flow earlier. Earlier, allows more time before getting hot. The BMW radiators are more than sufficient at cooling, although some do not like that they use plastic.

Using 100 octane will also help keep the temperatures down.

It works so well, that I can let the car idle without a fan for at least 10 minutes on a hot day. I also know that they install them on all the race cars for Bimmerworld and Turner. I would personally call them to talk about it.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3-...-degree-c.aspx

All cars run water with Water Wetter on the track at the upper levels. No one uses coolant. I am personally scared to drive around anyone who has coolant in their cars on the race track. Coolant and tires don't mix at any speed, let alone high speeds. In HPDE coolant is expected, since they are beginner drivers.
Good info! Thanks. I'm not sure I fully understand about the thermostat, because the car should be at full operating temp with the thermostat fully open prior to flogging it. The rest of it makes sense.

My understanding is that water actually makes the best heat exchanger. Coolant is mixed in so water doesn't freeze in the radiator.

Anyway, hope this wasn't too far OT.
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      06-10-2013, 08:18 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seank View Post
That is a good question. On my track car, I run a 30 degree lower thermostat. That being said, it does take longer to warm up (twice as long). The car runs 20 degrees lower on a 100 degree day. I THINK the difference is that it opens more, to allow more water to flow earlier. Earlier, allows more time before getting hot. The BMW radiators are more than sufficient at cooling, although some do not like that they use plastic.
I tried that. Does exactly what you say, it makes the car take longer to get to normal levels of heat. But does not reduce the maximum oil temps appreciably on the track. I think I will switch back actually, because when I take the Z4 on the street it's because I want to enjoy it, and waiting nearly 10 minutes for it to heat up really annoys me. Often the trip I'm making isn't much longer than that.

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Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Bottom line is if you plan on tracking this kit in a non Nordic country be prepared to add significant cooling capacity or deal with limp modes (on Track).
I disagree with that. In my experience over the past 6 years with and without FI I don't think the kit made the problem much worse, maybe just a little. The problem was already there bone stock, so bottom line IMO is the Z4M does not have enough cooling capacity for the track.

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Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
So I'm going to try upgrading my radiator , adding the motorsport thermostat and running 100% distilled water with water wetter, before changing out the oil cooler I just payed big bucks for.
Let's hope there is still enough room for a larger radiator now that the intercooler is in there! Pretty sure that's the only thing in your list that will make a difference. I'll see if I can find someone who's done it.

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The afternoon sessions my oil temps continued to climb to the 260-270 range and i started having a limp mode kick in only at the end of the straight (after 12 seconds of full throttle acceleration. This could be avoided by short shifting into 6th gear but this considerably slowed me down.
If I were trying to avoid limp mode, I'd short shift every gear on that straight. Just a little in every gear should make more difference to limp mode and slow you down less. I'm not even talking about short shifting really, just changing your style to shift earlier by a couple of 100 rpm.

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Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I'm just happy I was able to run it enough to get it overheated lol.
Glad you had a better day than last time!

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Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I will keep everyone posted on how things go.
Please do!

One question. Have you EVER seem limp mode twice in one session? Me, never. Never ever ever. That is one thing (that and the lack of any codes being thrown) that makes me think the issue is not related to a specific temp range being breeched. Also, I bet there have been instances where you've gone into limp mode early in the session, before the car even gets to full track heat? That's what made me so hopeful for your fuel pressure solution. But I guess it's more complicated than that. It's like the ECU is making a judgement call based on a collection of measurements that have been adversely affected by rapidly increasing temps, rather than the temp itself. And because there is not one specific variable it can identify as the cause, it doesn't throw a code.

Sounds stupid I know, but that's what it seems like.
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      06-10-2013, 09:06 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMZ432 View Post
I tried that. Does exactly what you say, it makes the car take longer to get to normal levels of heat. But does not reduce the maximum oil temps appreciably on the track. I think I will switch back actually, because when I take the Z4 on the street it's because I want to enjoy it, and waiting nearly 10 minutes for it to heat up really annoys me. Often the trip I'm making isn't much longer than that.



I disagree with that. In my experience over the past 6 years with and without FI I don't think the kit made the problem much worse, maybe just a little. The problem was already there bone stock, so bottom line IMO is the Z4M does not have enough cooling capacity for the track.



Let's hope there is still enough room for a larger radiator now that the intercooler is in there! Pretty sure that's the only thing in your list that will make a difference. I'll see if I can find someone who's done it.



If I were trying to avoid limp mode, I'd short shift every gear on that straight. Just a little in every gear should make more difference to limp mode and slow you down less. I'm not even talking about short shifting really, just changing your style to shift earlier by a couple of 100 rpm.



Glad you had a better day than last time!



Please do!

One question. Have you EVER seem limp mode twice in one session? Me, never. Never ever ever. That is one thing (that and the lack of any codes being thrown) that makes me think the issue is not related to a specific temp range being breeched. Also, I bet there have been instances where you've gone into limp mode early in the session, before the car even gets to full track heat? That's what made me so hopeful for your fuel pressure solution. But I guess it's more complicated than that. It's like the ECU is making a judgement call based on a collection of measurements that have been adversely affected by rapidly increasing temps, rather than the temp itself. And because there is not one specific variable it can identify as the cause, it doesn't throw a code.

Sounds stupid I know, but that's what it seems like.

To answer your question yes it started happening despite short shifting, and no I'm not going to settle on babying the car to work around the problem. Towards the afternoon when it was hottest it happened 4 times in one session. There really isn't an option to take it easier I'm already starting a gear higher 5th vs. 4th at the start of the straight (5th gear at 90mph is not ideal)and it was happening at the end of the straight at around 7800 rpm despite that. I'm not going to shift into 6th with 100 feet left in the straight. Even coasting the last several hundred feet it limped once. It's 100% the extra boost as I was running 230 oil temps max in the same conditions taking every gear to redline with my VT-1(I did have a M6 oil cooler on the VT-1). With that setup I had limp mode very rarely on track.
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      06-10-2013, 10:24 PM   #48
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Have you tried to install an oil diverter valve? Fairly inexpensive DIY.
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      06-10-2013, 10:36 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I'm not going to settle on babying the car to work around the problem.
Haha. Fair enough. I didn't really mean "babying" but I agree you shouldn't have to compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
It's 100% the extra boost as I was running 230 oil temps max in the same conditions taking every gear to redline with my VT-1(I did have a M6 oil cooler on the VT-1). With that setup I had limp mode very rarely on track.
Well, boost yeah but the new intercooler is also reducing the efficiency of your radiator.

Some interesting VT2 E46 cooling discussions here, especially comments relating to the Bimmerworld E46 C&R Racing radiator.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=421190
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      06-10-2013, 10:48 PM   #50
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damn these cooling issues. I honestly had the oil temp start to creep up immediately after a hard autocross run in 90* ambient temps. It drops down to normal in about 1 minute though
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      06-11-2013, 01:41 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMZ432 View Post
Some interesting VT2 E46 cooling discussions here, especially comments relating to the Bimmerworld E46 C&R Racing radiator.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=421190
Very interesting info, did some digging and found some good reviews for the zionsville radiator and for the bimmerworld c&r one mentioned in that thread.
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      06-11-2013, 04:53 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beta
Quote:
Originally Posted by VMZ432 View Post
Some interesting VT2 E46 cooling discussions here, especially comments relating to the Bimmerworld E46 C&R Racing radiator.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=421190
Very interesting info, did some digging and found some good reviews for the zionsville radiator and for the bimmerworld c&r one mentioned in that thread.
Me as well , the Bimmerworld C&R will not fit as it is for the E46 M3 , so I'm going with the Zionville .
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      06-11-2013, 08:22 PM   #53
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So the zionsville radiator is the same size as stock but with much better cooling?
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      06-11-2013, 08:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Me as well , the Bimmerworld C&R will not fit as it is for the E46 M3 , so I'm going with the Zionville .
It would be a good idea to confirm dimensions first though. They say it's a direct swap but that doesn't mean it's a direct swap with the VT2 intercooler and pullies in play. I'm confident it could be made to fit though. It couldn't be as far off as the C&R one.

Also, $1,000 would be reasonable if it fixes our issue, but not if it is no help. Perhaps we can get a list of people together who are interested, show it to Zionville and ask that they heavily discount one for you, so you can be the test case. You get a sizable discount, Zionville get an instant bulk order, and we get pre-order piece of mind (especially important for those of us importing from half a world away). It's win win win. Except for you if it has little or no impact of course.

One issue is, people are going to complain it's not 52mm. As long as it brings our temps down on hard tracking, I couldn't care less about it's capacity.

Anyway, gmd2003 if you are interested, ask Zion all your initial questions if you have any, and then if you like I can go about writing up a thread and negotiating something with Zion, possibly initiate a group buy but most importantly get the cost of that first unit as low as possible.

Or if you just wanna roll the dice on your own, keep us in the loop!

FYI, couple of threads on Z3 Zion rads (lots more threads floating around on non-Z's no doubt). Very little detail but they suggest Zionsville would be good people to deal with:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=347794
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=216832
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      06-11-2013, 08:46 PM   #55
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So the zionsville radiator is the same size as stock but with much better cooling?
Yes to better cooling (materials alone would account for this, aside from design) though total impact is unknown. Size difference is currently unknown, but it seems implied they are the same size. There will be more info here soon no doubt.
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      06-12-2013, 05:29 AM   #56
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VMZ432,

I do not understand your comment that 'the Z4M does not have enough cooling capacity for the track'?

If you say this with regards to having a SC I would have to agree looking at the data that everyone else has posted, since I do not have a SC.

I would disagree if you are talking about a stockish (not SC) engine. Just my personal experience over the last three or four years on the track with this car says you are incorrect. I have been on the track in 100’ ambient temps and my oil temperature has never been above 225. If the temperature is less than 100’ the oil temps always hover around 220. This past weekend at the track, the ambient temp was 95’ and my oil temps never climbed above 205, but I am using a different weight oil now also which allows my engine to run a tad bit cooler all the time now. Even on the street.
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      06-12-2013, 08:11 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMZ432 View Post
It would be a good idea to confirm dimensions first though. They say it's a direct swap but that doesn't mean it's a direct swap with the VT2 intercooler and pullies in play. I'm confident it could be made to fit though. It couldn't be as far off as the C&R one.

Also, $1,000 would be reasonable if it fixes our issue, but not if it is no help. Perhaps we can get a list of people together who are interested, show it to Zionville and ask that they heavily discount one for you, so you can be the test case. You get a sizable discount, Zionville get an instant bulk order, and we get pre-order piece of mind (especially important for those of us importing from half a world away). It's win win win. Except for you if it has little or no impact of course.

One issue is, people are going to complain it's not 52mm. As long as it brings our temps down on hard tracking, I couldn't care less about it's capacity.

Anyway, gmd2003 if you are interested, ask Zion all your initial questions if you have any, and then if you like I can go about writing up a thread and negotiating something with Zion, possibly initiate a group buy but most importantly get the cost of that first unit as low as possible.

Or if you just wanna roll the dice on your own, keep us in the loop!

FYI, couple of threads on Z3 Zion rads (lots more threads floating around on non-Z's no doubt). Very little detail but they suggest Zionsville would be good people to deal with:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=347794
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=216832
I have spoken with several vendors and the Zionsville is the best option for direct fitment and they have avery good reputation. It is very interesting that the stock Z4M radiator is from the non M E46 , thus E46 M3 radiator upgrades are a total no go. Zionsville takes a custom aluminum core that is slightly larger than stock with better fin design and welds it to aluminum expansion tanks, also larger than stock(and not plastic) but is in the same vertical and horizontal dimensions. They say it has approximately 10% more cooling capacity than the stock radiator. My hope is by installing it, a fresh OEM water pump (I'm at 70k miles), BMW motorsport thermostat, and using pure distilled water/Mocool I can get to a stable 210 water temp on track.
I went ahead and ordered from them because I am a very impatient man, and want to do some track days without issues! I will be the guinea pig for everyone else
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      06-12-2013, 08:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
VMZ432,

I do not understand your comment that 'the Z4M does not have enough cooling capacity for the track'?

If you say this with regards to having a SC I would have to agree looking at the data that everyone else has posted, since I do not have a SC.

I would disagree if you are talking about a stockish (not SC) engine. Just my personal experience over the last three or four years on the track with this car says you are incorrect. I have been on the track in 100’ ambient temps and my oil temperature has never been above 225. If the temperature is less than 100’ the oil temps always hover around 220. This past weekend at the track, the ambient temp was 95’ and my oil temps never climbed above 205, but I am using a different weight oil now also which allows my engine to run a tad bit cooler all the time now. Even on the street.
It definitely does not have enough cooling capacity for SC applications especially the radiator system. To confound the issue those running an intercooler now have it disrupting flow to part of the radiator and a large oil cooler in front of it as well. The stock coolant system just can't handle that on track (water temps in the red within 3 hot laps on a 90 degree day.
Stock it really is variable , but depends on the track and most importantly the drivers skill level. I had no problems NA at Roebling Road (Momentum track with a long straight), but did run hot at CMP (lots of braking/ turns and acceleration).
The bottom line is to truly track a car hard in hot conditions cooling modifications are always useful . The Z4M for an OEM car is set up well for occasional track use but once you reach an advanced skill level it is not enough on many tracks.
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      06-12-2013, 09:48 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I have spoken with several vendors and the Zionsville is the best option for direct fitment and they have avery good reputation. It is very interesting that the stock Z4M radiator is from the non M E46 , thus E46 M3 radiator upgrades are a total no go. Zionsville takes a custom aluminum core that is slightly larger than stock with better fin design and welds it to aluminum expansion tanks, also larger than stock(and not plastic) but is in the same vertical and horizontal dimensions. They say it has approximately 10% more cooling capacity than the stock radiator. My hope is by installing it, a fresh OEM water pump (I'm at 70k miles), BMW motorsport thermostat, and using pure distilled water/Mocool I can get to a stable 210 water temp on track.
I went ahead and ordered from them because I am a very impatient man, and want to do some track days without issues! I will be the guinea pig for everyone else
Thank you.


Quote:
It definitely does not have enough cooling capacity for SC applications especially the radiator system. To confound the issue those running an intercooler now have it disrupting flow to part of the radiator and a large oil cooler in front of it as well. The stock coolant system just can't handle that on track (water temps in the red within 3 hot laps on a 90 degree day.
Stock it really is variable , but depends on the track and most importantly the drivers skill level. I had no problems NA at Roebling Road (Momentum track with a long straight), but did run hot at CMP (lots of braking/ turns and acceleration).
The bottom line is to truly track a car hard in hot conditions cooling modifications are always useful . The Z4M for an OEM car is set up well for occasional track use but once you reach an advanced skill level it is not enough on many tracks.
Agreed.
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      06-12-2013, 01:13 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I went ahead and ordered from them because I am a very impatient man, and want to do some track days without issues! I will be the guinea pig for everyone else
Awesome keep us posted, take lots of pictures! At some point everyone's going to have to refresh the radiator, this could be a great upgrade even on non-fi cars.
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      06-12-2013, 02:47 PM   #61
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Another issue with intercooler is

-it replaces the stock location of oil cooler and there is a gap below the radiator which is low pressure. This will make the radiator less efficient, due to lowering the pressure in front of the radiator slightly.

-The oil cooler is put in front of the radiator, which pre-heats the air before going though the radiator. Also, unless the gap between the oil cooler and radiator is closed off at the seams, it won't have low pressure to draw the air through the oil cooler. It will be high pressure behind the oil cooler. Essentially making it less efficient.

Having high pressure in the front and low pressure behind is what draws the air through because it wants to be in a low pressure area.

I will have to look at mine when it is being installed next week.

Not that this will solve all the issues, but it should be something to be considered.
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      06-13-2013, 11:46 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I went ahead and ordered from them because I am a very impatient man, and want to do some track days without issues! I will be the guinea pig for everyone else
You're awesome. Can't wait to hear back!
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      06-13-2013, 11:54 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
VMZ432,

I do not understand your comment that 'the Z4M does not have enough cooling capacity for the track'?

If you say this with regards to having a SC I would have to agree looking at the data that everyone else has posted, since I do not have a SC.

I would disagree if you are talking about a stockish (not SC) engine. Just my personal experience over the last three or four years on the track with this car says you are incorrect. I have been on the track in 100’ ambient temps and my oil temperature has never been above 225. If the temperature is less than 100’ the oil temps always hover around 220. This past weekend at the track, the ambient temp was 95’ and my oil temps never climbed above 205, but I am using a different weight oil now also which allows my engine to run a tad bit cooler all the time now. Even on the street.
Does that mean you are using the Redline now? (I've seen your cool spreadsheet).

Re: disagreement, fair enough. I tend to agree with everything gmd2003 said above, so I doubt we will ever reach an agreement. For what it's worth, when my car was stock and I was getting heat issues I did have BMW look into it and they found nothing. All in all I'd rather be in your camp where everything is honky dory, than mine where there is a small yet ever present worry over engine temps on the track (even back when she was stock). So you win.
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      06-14-2013, 02:35 AM   #64
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^^^ I've rarely heard of overheating issues stock - even from the multitude of track-junkies on this site. You may have had a one-off. Not surprised the dealership didn't find anything tho
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      06-14-2013, 07:17 AM   #65
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No winning involved here. I just was a little confused based on MY experiances. Remember, every car is a little different.

I have been using Redline 10W60 for the last two oil changes. I have also been adding a bottle of ZDDPlus to bring the anti-wear ZDDP levels (Zinc and Phosphorus) up.

I just switched to Redline 15W50. (I hear the ‘BMW Engineers know better than you’ Nazi’s with their pitchforks and torches moving toward me now…..)
At a Porsche event at VIR last month, James Clay was there all three days. He was being a personal driving coach for someone. I did not ask how much THAT cost……

We had a discussion about oil for the S54B32 engine. His comments specifically said that he and his tech boys at Bimmerworld are seeing better bearing wear on the S54 using a 50 weight oil. Like I said in a previous post, my on track temps are 5-10’ cooler with the 50 weight oil than with a 60 weight.

My car has 38,000 miles on it. I received the Blackstone report last week. My ‘Lead’ level was at a staggering 43PPM and ‘Iron’ was at 17PPM. Remember, this report has been on 10W60.

I am concerned but not ‘going out of my mind’ like some on this board would do. There are several things that could cause this spike in lead other than bearing wear. I just have to wait and see. Just be to sure and to have all my duck in a row, I have talked to Randy Forbes and my local guy on doing a bearing replacement.

I plan doing another oil sample at 3000miles to see what the delta’s are.
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      06-14-2013, 10:48 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
No winning involved here. I just was a little confused based on MY experiances. Remember, every car is a little different.

I have been using Redline 10W60 for the last two oil changes. I have also been adding a bottle of ZDDPlus to bring the anti-wear ZDDP levels (Zinc and Phosphorus) up.

I just switched to Redline 15W50. (I hear the ‘BMW Engineers know better than you’ Nazi’s with their pitchforks and torches moving toward me now…..)
At a Porsche event at VIR last month, James Clay was there all three days. He was being a personal driving coach for someone. I did not ask how much THAT cost……

We had a discussion about oil for the S54B32 engine. His comments specifically said that he and his tech boys at Bimmerworld are seeing better bearing wear on the S54 using a 50 weight oil. Like I said in a previous post, my on track temps are 5-10’ cooler with the 50 weight oil than with a 60 weight.

My car has 38,000 miles on it. I received the Blackstone report last week. My ‘Lead’ level was at a staggering 43PPM and ‘Iron’ was at 17PPM. Remember, this report has been on 10W60.

I am concerned but not ‘going out of my mind’ like some on this board would do. There are several things that could cause this spike in lead other than bearing wear. I just have to wait and see. Just be to sure and to have all my duck in a row, I have talked to Randy Forbes and my local guy on doing a bearing replacement.

I plan doing another oil sample at 3000miles to see what the delta’s are.
A must read for those who like to dive into the oil properties, which might explain why the 50 weight might be better. Enjoy.

http://members.rennlist.com/oil/Motor%20Oil%20101.htm
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