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      04-14-2012, 12:11 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate2046 View Post
Of course they'll be collectible, they're an interesting sports car. Sure production helps determine price but it isn't a make or break to determine whether something becomes 'collectible'. How many '64-69 Mustangs were built? Over a million? Still collectible.
The case of the Mustang, like the Camaro, MG, Jaguar E-type, and Porsche 911, is different. While tons of each car were made, they're icons of their time periods, part of their generation's zeitgeist. Demand outstrips supply because no matter how many were made, still more people want one.

The Z4 hasn't had remotely the same cultural impact. Saying it has the same chance of appreciating is like saying the Laura San Giancomo's role in "Pretty Woman" was as important as Julia Roberts'.
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      04-14-2012, 01:09 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
The case of the Mustang, like the Camaro, MG, Jaguar E-type, and Porsche 911, is different. While tons of each car were made, they're icons of their time periods, part of their generation's zeitgeist. Demand outstrips supply because no matter how many were made, still more people want one.

The Z4 hasn't had remotely the same cultural impact. Saying it has the same chance of appreciating is like saying the Laura San Giancomo's role in "Pretty Woman" was as important as Julia Roberts'.
Its not different at all. Icons of their time period? They're just cool, interesting cars, they look good, make the right sounds, and people want the experience. No different than any car of this era that fits those criteria, its just a matter of time. I go to the Mecum Spring Classic auction in Indy every year and believe me theres plenty of iron thats considered collectible that isn't all that special. I'd love to get a late 60's to early 70's Chevy C10 but they're getting pretty spendy for nice ones. I don't think that pickup is Julia Roberts but it is cool and thats why I want it.
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      04-14-2012, 02:00 PM   #25
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I own a 2002 S54 M Coupe(22,000 miles) as well as the 07. With only 690 copies it has a much better chance of being a collectible. However the low mileage Z4M will be extremely desirable/collectible as time goes on.
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      04-14-2012, 05:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Nate2046 View Post
Its not different at all. Icons of their time period? They're just cool, interesting cars, they look good, make the right sounds, and people want the experience. No different than any car of this era that fits those criteria, its just a matter of time.
We're going to have to agree to hugely, seriously, epically disagree on that.
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      04-14-2012, 07:14 PM   #27
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At first I was one of those that was definitely not enamored of the z4's looks. I thought the side profile was great, but the rear and front, eh while it didn't repulse me, it didn't make me drool either. I never expected to buy one, until this M came my way.

Now I smile as i walk to it, look over my shoulder as I walk away from it, and smile like a crazy man when I drive. I also keep coming here for more of whats going on with the community.

I think it is a cult thing, perhaps the M's will be collectibles as the worldwide production vs any other BMW's was so low. but the regular z's while amazing cars in their own right have simply too many out there to make it to collectible status, cult, oh hell yeah, ask any owner...

i don't think I will be getting rid of this car anytime soon
+1 to this.

Cult car? Yes, as this forum will attest to.

Collectible? That's simple economics at work that will dictate it: supply vs demand in the future. No different than any other asset whether it's wine, art, or a car, and we can only speculate today, and have fun debating it as we are now. What we need to figure out is, what elements will drive demand for these cars in 20 years?
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      04-14-2012, 07:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
We're going to have to agree to hugely, seriously, epically disagree on that.
Completely agree man. The Z4 was NEVER popular when it was originally sold. Sure the M version is a bit hotter now since the true NA M cars are a thing of the past, but the 911's, Mustangs and Cameros of the era were popular then and have remained popular with the curve rising as time goes on. I suppose the Z4 could attain collector status, but it is far from assured at this point.
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      04-14-2012, 07:26 PM   #29
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The potential downside to these cars becoming "collectable" is that they will become more costly for any of us who may want to get another one in the coming years.
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      04-14-2012, 07:30 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by gtMc View Post
+1 to this.

Cult car? Yes, as this forum will attest to.

Collectible? That's simple economics at work that will dictate it: supply vs demand in the future. No different than any other asset whether it's wine, art, or a car, and we can only speculate today, and have fun debating it as we are now. What we need to figure out is, what elements will drive demand for these cars in 20 years?
In 20 years there may be no fuel for these cars to run on
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      04-14-2012, 07:38 PM   #31
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In 20 years there may be no fuel for these cars to run on
I plan to install a Mr. Fusion and a flux capacitor.
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      04-14-2012, 08:15 PM   #32
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Completely agree man. The Z4 was NEVER popular when it was originally sold. Sure the M version is a bit hotter now since the true NA M cars are a thing of the past, but the 911's, Mustangs and Cameros of the era were popular then and have remained popular with the curve rising as time goes on. I suppose the Z4 could attain collector status, but it is far from assured at this point.
Some of the least popular cars of their time are also the most collectible. Rarity increases value and sometimes a car is simply ahead of its time. I think you guys are just getting hung up on the word 'collectible'. By itself it doesn't imply any sort of greatness or huge multiples of original value. It simply means people will still be interested in these cars 30 or 40 years from now and willing to buy and maintain them. Seriously, go to an auction and see if you can even identify half of the cars there. Theres nothing terribly iconic about an old Biscayne or Javelin, but again, there is a market for them and always will be. Not everyone can afford a '69 911S, thats why theres a market for cars like my '74. Everybody gets to play regardless of wallet size.

Just my .02c as someone who avidly follows the collector car market and yes, epbrown agree to disagree.
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      04-14-2012, 09:00 PM   #33
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I think it's a pretty easy argument to say that the Z4 coupe is a MUCH better looking car than the infamous "breadvan". (Don't get me wrong, I think the original M Coupe is fascinating, but the coupe conversion didn't come nearly as naturally to it whereas the Z4 seemed almost made with a hardtop in mind)

It could also be what makes it ultimately less "cult-y," but at the same time there's a lot going for it that makes it extremely desirable to the automotive cognoscenti:

1. The last car BMW made with an iconic, naturally aspirated inline six
2. Debatably the last "true" driver's car BMW made before electronic gizmos took over
3. Highly limited production numbers
4. Probably the epitome of Bangle's design language (as far as production cars go)

Guess we'll see in 20-30 years. I, for one, certainly hope to still have mine on the road by that time.
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      04-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #34
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If you look at the numbers for the M Coupe versus the Roadster in the US, as well as the worldwide production, it's the "M" status that will give both versions the cult status, not the fact it's a "Coupe". Yea, there were less Coupes made, but it's not like they made 10,000 M roadsters versus 1815 Coupes......... the differences, especially worldwide, are not that great. As stated above, both versions are the last of the true inline six NA "M" cars, and that is something car aficionados are becoming hip to.
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      04-14-2012, 10:53 PM   #35
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Mine's not a collectible, I've taken it out of the package and played with it. It was semi mint in box when I purchased it at 18k and I've put ~30k on it over the past ~2 years.

I think this discussion depends on your definition of collectible and cult. Call it what you want but I know I'm a fanatic
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      04-15-2012, 01:47 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate2046 View Post
Some of the least popular cars of their time are also the most collectible. Rarity increases value and sometimes a car is simply ahead of its time. I think you guys are just getting hung up on the word 'collectible'. By itself it doesn't imply any sort of greatness or huge multiples of original value. It simply means people will still be interested in these cars 30 or 40 years from now and willing to buy and maintain them.:
This is an important point ^. Some of the most collectibles cars of yesterday were terrible cars back then. Others were the best of their time, iconic or not.

Another question to ask is this: of all of the cars from the 2000-2010 era, which ones could really become collectors items? I would say the z4m is on that list. But many would say the same about the Pontiac solstice coupe. Who has one of those sitting under cover in their garage? Not me!
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      04-15-2012, 02:10 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtMc View Post
This is an important point ^. Some of the most collectibles cars of yesterday were terrible cars back then. Others were the best of their time, iconic or not.

Another question to ask is this: of all of the cars from the 2000-2010 era, which ones could really become collectors items? I would say the z4m is on that list. But many would say the same about the Pontiac solstice coupe. Who has one of those sitting under cover in their garage? Not me!
I can't think of a single car that, like art, became more popular post-humously; could one of you cite an example?

As for the Slstice coupe, maybe not you but pretty much everyone else has them sitting in a garage, dreaming of the day millions of people will want a car no one wanted when new. I think they'll be hugely disappointed, but they're out there.
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      04-15-2012, 03:13 PM   #38
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I can't think of a single car that, like art, became more popular post-humously; could one of you cite an example?
I don't think I understand your question. Who is it that died?

Somebody made the comment that the 'iconic' cars referred to here were always desirable and thus always valuable. Not really true as most of even the most valuable cars depreciated to a point, then stabilized, then started to go up in value. When that 'tipping point' is reached is subject to a lot of factors.
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      04-15-2012, 04:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
I can't think of a single car that, like art, became more popular post-humously; could one of you cite an example?

As for the Slstice coupe, maybe not you but pretty much everyone else has them sitting in a garage, dreaming of the day millions of people will want a car no one wanted when new. I think they'll be hugely disappointed, but they're out there.
A post humous example... are you referring to the death of the brand name on the car? and if so, then I hate to try and answer a question with another question.... But, technically wouldn't any car that has reached true collector status whos brand no longer exists, by default be considered 'post humous'? And If so, would the 2011 Pebble best in class winner (1934 Voisin C-25 Aerodyne) be a good one to cite? This car may have become worth more over time, but has it become more 'popular'?

You are absolutely right about the storage of the solstice, I think I read that the former head of GM might have one stashed away for this reason. And yes they could be dissapointed, only time will tell. My comment about 'Not me!' only referred to the fact that I dont have one, but I know others do for the hope of what could be.

Hence the lines of speculating and investing becomes blurred when dealing with cars.

(ps, I just happened to coincidentally pick the pontiac solstice because its a more modern day car that folks think might become a collectible, not because the brand is dead.)
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      04-15-2012, 05:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
The case of the Mustang, like the Camaro, MG, Jaguar E-type, and Porsche 911, is different. While tons of each car were made, they're icons of their time periods, part of their generation's zeitgeist. Demand outstrips supply because no matter how many were made, still more people want one.

The Z4 hasn't had remotely the same cultural impact. Saying it has the same chance of appreciating is like saying the Laura San Giancomo's role in "Pretty Woman" was as important as Julia Roberts'.
I personally do agree with epbrown ^ that these cars were iconic. & getting into 'Iconic' and whether it defines a cars collectibility is another debate too. To Nates point above, Does 'Iconic' automatically = 'Collectors item' or valuable or desireable? I agree with him, I think not always.

Those cars are iconic because of the widespread fondness - and it helped that most of them were more attainable to the greater population. There are also plenty of Iconic mustangs to go around, but the supply keeps the value down except for the rarest of them. The E-Type is also Iconic but its limited numbers made it more Collectible than most mustangs except the rare ones.

IMO too, The Z4 is not iconic. It is the modern day result stemming from other icons. Hence it has become a cult car, that COULD become a collectible, although yes to your point - it probably doesn't have the same chance of this that the Jag E-type did. I think the z4 is the END of a chapter as noted above by dekaliber. Icons tend to be the beginning of a NEW chapter.

It helps to be a rare car.
It helps to be an Iconic car.
It helps to be a cult car.
It helps to be a storied car.
But None of theses elements solely or combined will gaurentee a cars future status as a collectors item.
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      04-15-2012, 06:20 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtMc View Post

Cult car? Yes, as this forum will attest to.


I really didn't buy mine as a collectable or as an investment. I just like driving it and looking at it. It always puts a smile on my face. I've had a lot of really nice cars but this is the only one I feel any kind of emotional attachment too. Weird, but it's true.
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      04-15-2012, 06:24 PM   #42
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I plan to install a Mr. Fusion and a flux capacitor.
I'm always thinking about the opening sequence of The Road Warrior. Scrounging for fuel to get my coupe down the road. Scary shit really.
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      04-15-2012, 08:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffhopper
1815 coupes and I think 3000 roadsters stayed in North America.

I would say the z4 coupe in M badging or not will become a cult/collector's car.

The roadster not so much, there are just way too many out there.
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      04-15-2012, 09:42 PM   #44
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LOL, man you guys kill me with your coupes, you think you're driving the unicorn of vehicles or something. Don't get me wrong, I too love the coupe, fantastic looking car as well as performance, but a unicorn it ain't. As others have stated, it's the "M" designation that is giving these cars cult and possible collectible status. The fact that they made a gazillion NON "M" roadsters is irrelevant to the collectibility and desire people may have for the "M" Z4. As a matter of fact BMW actually made more E86 Coupes for the Euro market than Roadsters:

E86 Euro Spec M Coupes
1652 LHD
1054 RHD

North American E86 M Coupes
1815 (all RHD, includes 14 pre-production models)

E85 Euro Spec M Roadsters
1325 LHD
916 RHD

North American E85 M Roadsters
3042 (all RHD, includes 44 pre-production models)

The total worldwide production difference is just 766 more M Roadsters. Considering that total production for both models is only 9,800 cars, and this was the end of the S54 engine, the desirablilty factor is high among enthusiasts. I stand by my assertion that it's the "M" designation that is creating the cult/collectibility issue, and that the number of regular roadsters produced doesn't have a major impact on that fact.
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